The Pep myth

[Lewberry pie]

Don't get this obsession with taking the elite managers and putting them with less successful clubs to prove their ability.
Guardiola has only once finished as low as third place in all his years in management. He's finished second twice. He's won 10 out of 13 league titles he's competed for. He's looking likely to make that 11 out of 14 in the next month.
That level of consistency is ridiculous.
Ancelotti winning all the big 5 leagues and multiple champions leagues, Mourinho delivering trophies wherever he goes (except spurs, sacked the week before a final). These managers are never gonna drop down a division to prove a point. They don't need to.

I think with pep he did a very good job with Barca but the team he managed was absolutely ridiculously good, like a champ man team, then any other team he's managed have also been exactly the same, he is a very good coach but he's also managing the sort of athletes that are incredibly motivated naturally and world class talents themselves. Alex Ferguson or Clough spent big money but also turned plodders into cogs within their team and adapted their systems based on the players they had, Pep has never had to do that because he's always just bought players to suit his style and then any player he doesn't need can be discarded because there's no jeopardy of making a mistake with a player.

 

[bowers2]

Absolutely the same game marra.
11 against 11. Exactly the same.
Politics and finance has changed, but the game is the same.
A good coach/manager will cope with, and improve what he has.
It's a lazy trope trotted out by people with no real answer when examples are provided to disprove their theory.
People say it can't be done. They are shown examples of when it was done. They trot out the " oh but that was years ago. The game has changed".
The elite managers could do it.

Give over. Same game?
Look at the pissheads who scabbed a living as opposed to athletes.
The data collection and analysis, the equipment and clothing.
The coaching and tactics are total opposites to the 4/4/2.
I could go on but the game has progressed and is light years away from your 11v11 analogy.

Suppose pitman still dig coal with their fingernails by your comparison?

 

[TOONDOON]

Rafa Wasn’t a top manager imo

Fat Spanish waiter, fucked up a few big clubs.

 

[Rocky77]

Pep is absolutely superb, one of the greatest. Plenty of manager have had money to spend and been nowhere near as good as city, or played the style of football they play.

 

[Georgewhitt]

Give over. Same game?
Look at the pissheads who scabbed a living as opposed to athletes.
The data collection and analysis, the equipment and clothing.
The coaching and tactics are total opposites to the 4/4/2.
I could go on but the game has progressed and is light years away from your 11v11 analogy.

Suppose pitman still dig coal with their fingernails by your comparison?

So no one play 442 now. Ever.
The modern game invented the high press?
"Total football" is a Premier League invention?

Data collection, diet, equipment etc have obviously made things better, as has quality playing surfaces, but the basic game is the same. It is faster, as a result of some things you mention, but the basic game is the same.
Listen to Souness and others of his ilk. Some things now have different names like "High press" or 'false 9" or "10", but all of these things existed 40 years or more ago mate, and were employed.

And your miners analagy is just futile marra.

 

[Sallycinamon]

Clough did it with Derby and Forest.
Shankly did it with Liverpool.
Revie did it with Leeds

Revie wasn’t a top manager when he went to Leeds, it was his first job.
Shankly wasn’t a top manager when he joined Liverpool, he was a lower league manager.
Clough wasn’t a top manager when he went to Derby, he’d only been at Hartlepool.

 

[bowers2]

So no one play 442 now. Ever.
The modern game invented the high press?
"Total football" is a Premier League invention?

Data collection, diet, equipment etc have obviously made things better, as has quality playing surfaces, but the basic game is the same. It is faster, as a result of some things you mention, but the basic game is the same.
Listen to Souness and others of his ilk. Some things now have different names like "High press" or 'false 9" or "10", but all of these things existed 40 years or more ago mate, and were employed.

And your miners analagy is just futile marra.

My point is things move on. Like being at school. “Wasn’t like that in my day”.
The same stuff is spewed out with boxers.

Anyway the futile point is comparing stuff. It was a lazy argument in the first place.

 

[Georgewhitt]

Revie wasn’t a top manager when he went to Leeds, it was his first job.
Shankly wasn’t a top manager when he joined Liverpool, he was a lower league manager.
Clough wasn’t a top manager when he went to Derby, he’d only been at Hartlepool.

I know that man.
But they prove that a "top manager", or whatever you want to call them, can do it at a lower level.
No "top manager" is going to take a job in the lower reaches just to prove a point man.
They prove that you can be a great manager at the top of the game, but zlso do it at a lower level.

 

[Sallycinamon]

Rafa Wasn’t a top manager imo

Won league titles in Spain, European trophies (including champions league) with several clubs, trophies in Italy. Managed some of Europes biggest clubs. Think that constitutes a top manager.

 

[Georgewhitt]

My point is things move on. Like being at school. “Wasn’t like that in my day”.
The same stuff is spewed out with boxers.

Anyway the futile point is comparing stuff. It was a lazy argument in the first place.

Things do move on mate. I accept that. But not everything credited as a modern invention in the tactical side of the game, is actually a new thing. They were being done 40 or 50 years ago. Just called different things.

 

[Sallycinamon]

Don't get this obsession with taking the elite managers and putting them with less successful clubs to prove their ability.
Guardiola has only once finished as low as third place in all his years in management. He's finished second twice. He's won 10 out of 13 league titles he's competed for. He's looking likely to make that 11 out of 14 in the next month.
That level of consistency is ridiculous.
Ancelotti winning all the big 5 leagues and multiple champions leagues, Mourinho delivering trophies wherever he goes (except spurs, sacked the week before a final). These managers are never gonna drop down a division to prove a point. They don't need to.

What makes you think it’s an obsession?

Like I said, it’ll never happen. Why would it?

Im not saying whether they’d succeed or fail. I’m saying it would be interesting, for example, to see if say Guardiola could do what Franke has done at Brentford. Or what Eddie Howe did at Bournemouth, or what Robins has done at Coventry.

 

[bowers2]

Things do move on mate. I accept that. But not everything credited as a modern invention in the tactical side of the game, is actually a new thing. They were being done 40 or 50 years ago. Just called different things.

I agree partially.
Some cracking players of yester year.

To answer the OP. Pep has spent a lot of money trying to win the only thing he hasn’t won at city.
Wonder if they hadn’t cheated he would actually be in the same position.

 

[Dan The Man]

Won league titles in Spain, European trophies (including champions league) with several clubs, trophies in Italy. Managed some of Europes biggest clubs. Think that constitutes a top manager.

Aye about 10 years before he rocked up at Newcastle. The mags didn’t get the top class Rafa they got a shite version imo

 

[Sallycinamon]

I know that man.
But they prove that a "top manager", or whatever you want to call them, can do it at a lower level.
No "top manager" is going to take a job in the lower reaches just to prove a point man.
They prove that you can be a great manager at the top of the game, but zlso do it at a lower level.

For the umpteenth time, I’ve already said “it’ll never happen”, in fact it was my opening words! Some folk on here simply don’t read things properly!!

Anyway, I’m talking about a top manager - or what we like to call a top manager - dropping down to an unfashionable club and seeing how they get on. I’ll say again, it’ll never happen, but it would be interesting to see how they get on.

As for saying it’s exactly the same game nowadays as it was in the 60’s and 70’s, you couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s a million miles away. The Millwall analogy mentioned above is the perfect response to such a claim.

 

[Georgewhitt]

I agree partially.
Some cracking players of yester year.

To answer the OP. Pep has spent a lot of money trying to win the only thing he hasn’t won at city.
Wonder if they hadn’t cheated he would actually be in the same position.

Got some sympathy for that question mind.

For the umpteenth time, I’ve already said “it’ll never happen”, in fact it was my opening words! Some folk on here simply don’t read things properly!!

Anyway, I’m talking about a top manager - or what we like to call a top manager - dropping down to an unfashionable club and seeing how they get on. I’ll say again, it’ll never happen, but it would be interesting to see how they get on.

As for saying it’s exactly the same game nowadays as it was in the 60’s and 70’s, you couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s a million miles away. The Millwall analogy mentioned above is the perfect response to such a claim.

Why is the Millwall analogy so wrong then?

 

[Sallycinamon]

Aye about 10 years before he rocked up at Newcastle. The mags didn’t get the top class Rafa they got a shite version imo

Fair point mate. He was still winning trophies and European trophies a couple of year before he joined Newcastle though.

Got some sympathy for that question mind.

Why is the Millwall analogy so wrong then?

I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m saying it’s a perfect response to your point about the game being exactly the same as the 70’s.

Clough, took an unfashionable, mid-table second division side (akin to Millwall) to promotion, the first division title (modern day PL) and two European cup triumphs in the space of 5 years. It’s as close to impossible as you can get in modern day football, it simply wouldn’t happen, regardless of who was manager. That’s why your claim that football is “exactly the same” these days is wrong.

 

[Georgewhitt]

Fair point mate. He was still winning trophies and European trophies a couple of year before he joined Newcastle though.

I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m saying it’s a perfect response to your point about the game being exactly the same as the 70’s.

Clough, took an unfashionable, mid-table second division side (akin to Millwall) to promotion, the first division title (modern day PL) and two European cup triumphs in the space of 5 years. It’s as close to impossible as you can get in modern day football, it simply wouldn’t happen, regardless of who was manager. That’s why your claim that football is “exactly the same” these days is wrong.

You seem pretty keen on people not reading stuff properly, for someone clearly as guilty of it as those you accuse.
I have said lots of things have moved on. Finance, Tech, data, sports science, kit, diet, playing surfaces. Loads of stuff.
But "the game" i.e football, and 11 against 11, remains the same. And as much as some modern day fans don't want to accept it, modern tactics were being employed 40 or 50 years ago.
And the top managers of their day were emplying them, and succeeding with lesser, poorer, less fashionable clubs.

 

[Sallycinamon]

You seem pretty keen on people not reading stuff properly, for someone clearly as guilty of it as those you accuse.
I have said lots of things have moved on. Finance, Tech, data, sports science, kit, diet, playing surfaces. Loads of stuff.
But "the game" i.e football, and 11 against 11, remains the same. And as much as some modern day fans don't want to accept it, modern tactics were being employed 40 or 50 years ago.
And the top managers of their day were emplying them, and succeeding with lesser, poorer, less fashionable clubs.

But the gulf between where the likes of Clough and Shankly took teams from and got teams to is as big as its ever been, far bigger than in those days, hence why “the game” is nowhere near the same as it was. It may still be 11 v 11 but it’s a massive gulf in class compared to what it was, so much so that their feats will never be seen again. Hence why the Millwall analogy was perfect.

 

[joedurham]

Tbf the European leagues are poor this year. Barca are coasting La Liga and as demonstrated yesterday are rank average. PSG are winning the French league and in spite of a plethora of stars have lost five times, twice in the last week. Dortmund are edging a very poor Bundesliga borne out by the fact that Freiburg are a mere seven points behind them in 4th. As for the Premier and in spite of Lineker's attempts to boost it, City and Arsenal have had very limited opposition to deal with, the latter looking likely to fall away tamely. So this idea of the City wonderteam needs to be put into perspective.

The only other really good team in Europe is Madrid - we will see how they get on in two weeks time. However, watching the game again this morning I was just amazed by how City bring together all the elements, skill, power, pace, organisation, team solidarity into an awesome mix.

 

[Georgewhitt]

But the gulf between where the likes of Clough and Shankly took teams from and got teams to is as big as its ever been, far bigger than in those days, hence why “the game” is nowhere near the same as it was. It may still be 11 v 11 but it’s a massive gulf in class compared to what it was, so much so that their feats will never be seen again. Hence why the Millwall analogy was perfect.

But all I said about Millwall was that I think Pep would have got them over the line and promoted. Do what you want others to do. READ IT.
Your proposition invited opinions, and you got one. Just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it wrong.