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Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

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Break his hold over the ordinary Russian people and the mothers of Russia will help end it. Lack of funds and the coffins rolling home helped finish them in Afghanistan. "Zinky Boys" is a grim and difficult read but it tells the stories of the ordinary people caught up in the horrors of war.
 

MonkeyLove said:
They have no need to take it yet. Focus should be on getting civilians out and those that are willing to stay and fight bogging down the Russians. Russia don’t hold all the cards on this, they carry on they will have to control and subjugate 40 million Ukrainians for potentially decades.

Not sustainable.

And besides even if Ukraine wanted to accept it the people probably wouldn’t. They especially wouldn’t if Putin puts Yanukovych in as a puppet. I doubt the existing military and security forces would even support him.
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Ukraine shouldnt accept anything that does not allow them to join the European Union. NATO is a bit more tricky and might me a Russian red line but the EU should be a Ukraine redline.

I would like to think the West show some balls and blackball Putin and the Russian economy for a long time.
 
The Great Soprendo said:
Agreeing to the first thing your opposite number puts on the table isn't how to negotiate.

I accept that they aren't in a position of strength here but the Russians clearly aren't having this all their own way and sanctions will start to cut deep. And their military losses will continue to ramp up if they keep this going.

So at the very least a counter-offer should include things mentioned elsewhere like an independently verified referendum in those breakaway regions with Russian acceptance of the outcome, acceptance that Ukraine is independent but free to arm itself as it chooses, and assurances that neutrality will be respected (triggering other outcomes if not). However no country should be forced by another to amend its constitution for ever more - it flies totally in the face of how democracy works.
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Ukraine could agree not to join Nato and sign an agreement not to threaten Russia. It could also sign a mutual Defense agreement with NATO. Which might also be a good idea for Sweden, Finland, Ireland et al. So no Nato weapons in those countries.
 
Joe Baker said:
Posted this on another thread which sums up my thoughts:

Zelenskyy vs Boris.
Ones a professional comedian who it turns out is a Churchill like statesman, the other thinks he's a Churchill like statesman but it turns out he's an amateurish clown.
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The one liked was one leading his people from the front
The other hid in the fridge at good morning Britain 🇬🇧
 
SYB_DC said:
And never mind that back at the breakup of the USSR, Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for a treaty-enshrined promise by Russia to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity.

Yeah, agreements with Russia work really well when they leave you vulnerable. Yeah.

Because the fundamental Russian belief is that they should own Ukraine. It's really that simple.
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Which is why I think Ukraine would need something from Russia that they can't back away from. At the very least, they need the right to building their own, sufficient, military force. And if I were them, I'd make sure that included the very best air defences and aircraft they can afford from the west (paid for by the west if necessary).
 
Wild Card said:
Ukraine shouldnt accept anything that does not allow them to join the European Union. NATO is a bit more tricky and might me a Russian red line but the EU should be a Ukraine redline.

I would like to think the West show some balls and blackball Putin and the Russian economy for a long time.
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Did you live through any part of the Cold War? That's basically proposing a second Cold War - with all of its attendant threats, wastes of money on weaponry, and economic isolation.

I'll tell you that growing up in DC with the constant specter of nuclear annihilation hanging over me was perhaps less than optimal.
 
den said:
He did threaten us with nuclear annihilation though. The murdering of innocent civilians needs to stop right now, but we need to keep the pressure on Putin and his cronies.
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As I said earlier the West doesn't need to lift sanctions. Ultimately it's something we're watching on TV safe at home so if we aren't going to go in and fight alongside them we need to stop the conflict before there's nowt left to salvage. Putin’s conditions can be a starting point.
 
bomber said:
☝️😀😆😁 That much pressure that his party are 1/7 to win.
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It was looking grim for him last year (I rather lazily didn't check the latest SP 😊)

Despite there being a very weak opposition there was a real possibility of him being defeated.

TBF, he did manage the end of the Covid crisis better than many expected and all this piping off Vlad seems to have semen-ted his position.
 
SYB_DC said:
Did you live through any part of the Cold War? That's basically proposing a second Cold War - with all of its attendant threats, wastes of money on weaponry, and economic isolation.

I'll tell you that growing up in DC with the constant specter of nuclear annihilation hanging over me was perhaps less than optimal.
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Many of us have lived under the spectre of a nuclear attack. My children grew up in town that was the radio station used to contact our nuclear subs. It would have been a first strike in the UK. You get on with your life and if Russia by its actions has brought on a Second Cold War then they have to live with the consequences.
 
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cosmicchris00 said:
It was looking grim for him last year (I rather lazily didn't check the latest SP 😊)

Despite there being a very weak opposition there was a real possibility of him being defeated.

TBF, he did manage the end of the Covid crisis better than many expected and all this piping off Vlad seems to have semen-ted his position.
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So your post was a load of shite then.Pleased we got that sorted.👍😁
 
Mercia Blackcat said:
Many of us have lived under the spectre of a nuclear attack. My children grew up in town that was the radio station used to contact our nuclear subs. It would have been a first strike in the UK. You get on with your life and if Russia by its actions has brought on a Second Cold War then they have to live with the consequences.
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I know many of us have. I suppose the question is: how much is it worth to not go back to that if it can be avoided? I don't know an answer, but some of the younger folks may not appreciate that the Cold War did kinda suck in a lot of ways.
 
SYB_DC said:
Did you live through any part of the Cold War? That's basically proposing a second Cold War - with all of its attendant threats, wastes of money on weaponry, and economic isolation.

I'll tell you that growing up in DC with the constant specter of nuclear annihilation hanging over me was perhaps less than optimal.
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I don’t see why they can’t join the EU with an agreement that no EU troops will be stationed on their soil. Nato as above- sign a Mutual Defence agreement but no Nato weapons on Ukraine soil.
 
Market Where? said:
Ukraine could agree not to join Nato and sign an agreement not to threaten Russia. It could also sign a mutual Defense agreement with NATO. Which might also be a good idea for Sweden, Finland, Ireland et al. So no Nato weapons in those countries.
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They could go the Russian way and say they're not going to join NATO then do it anyway. If Putin attacks thn he's attacking a NATO country and has fucked it.
 
SYB_DC said:
Their lawyers read the agreement and saw that's not what it actually says. It provides security "assurances," not "guarantees," which are different things in international law.
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Makes a mockery of the whole thing mind. Can't imagine any country will ever agree to anything with "assurances" if we've now worked out they aren't worth the paper they're written on
 
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Lord Alfred said:
As I said earlier the West doesn't need to lift sanctions. Ultimately it's something we're watching on TV safe at home so if we aren't going to go in and fight alongside them we need to stop the conflict before there's nowt left to salvage. Putin’s conditions can be a starting point.
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I don’t feel safe at home, he has threatened to nuke us, we should not give in to this evil man and maybe the west should learn from those brave Ukrainians, otherwise all those lives lost will be in vain.
 
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