Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

[nelford_safc]

Aye. Poor lads were expecting to be welcomed, instead they got shot at the daft twats.

Obviously their officers can't even give orders.

I feel for the poor young lads who don't want to be there. I dread to think how many have actually died, because the exact number will always be covered up.

One thing this conflict has taught the world is that without nuclear weapons a country like the US would clearly steamroll the bastards, never mind NATO.

 

[SR7]

Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states…interesting. Given their cities have been shelled to bits and they are pretty small territories I assume Russia would be funding their rebuilding and they would basically be regions of Russia?

If I was Ukraine I would push for a referendum in those places. A proper one run and monitored by the UN, not the fake one Russia did before.

With neutrality enshrined in their constitutions, akin to their request of Ukraine.

 

[Concordsafc]

They're f***ing shite. Said it all along. The Russian solution is to throw every bloke they can get their hands on and pay for a victory with blood.

And they have more bodies to spill so he would happily spare them.

 

[Baloo]

They're f***ing shite. Said it all along. The Russian solution is to throw every bloke they can get their hands on and pay for a victory with blood.

“You cannot stop me, I spend 30,000 men a month”.

 

[Sweeper]

The problem with the face saving way out is that it will always be seen as a massive Russian loss. Will Russia continue to surprise access to Western media/social media to stop any anti Russian news reaching the masses? Putin will just be constantly undermined.

That's his problem though, as well as the internal fall out from all of this and the effect of the sanctions.

As others have said, Ukraine was never getting Crimea back, and Donetsk/Luhansk have been an almost de facto part of Russia for years. Letting go of them "formally" would actually save Ukraine the headache of the continued war there.

The main problem for Ukraine is likely to be what "neutrality" is taken to mean. You can imagine that after this, Ukrainian citizens will be desperate for NATO and/or EU membership, to warn off any further attacks by Putin.

Also - Europe needs to undertake an immediate strategy of energy self-dependence, which would give us energy security but also wean Europe off Russian gas/undermine the Russian economy massively long term. I'm afraid if that means parking "net zero" for a while, then so be it.

Aye. Poor lads were expecting to be welcomed, instead they got shot at the daft twats.

Obviously their officers can't even give orders.


Interesting. Some backtracking that mind.

I suspect someone's realised the Sanctions are going to teleport them back the 60s.

Aye. The 1860s.

 

[The Great Soprendo]

I suspect they'll want an end to sanctions too. Ultimately, they'd be getting rewarded for what they've done. But we need a way out that isn't escalatory and unthinkably destructive. I suppose if true this is a starting point that might mean an opportunity for something acceptable to all.

 

[UpTheDuff]

Poland still unsure about providing planes.

Polish planes “will not fight over Ukraine” to support the embattled country’s defence against Russia, Polish government officials said on Monday.
Marcin Przydacz, a deputy foreign minister, said in an interview on Radio Zet:

We will not open our airports and Polish planes will not fight over Ukraine ... Polish planes will not fight over Ukraine.

But, separately, the government’s spokesman Piotr Mueller indicated a final decision had not been made, the Associated Press reported. He said that the decision on whether to send fighter jets presented risks and was a “very delicate matter’.
The comments come after the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, asked the US to help Kyiv get more warplanes to fight Russia’s invasion and retain control of its airspace.
The US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, said Washington was looking at a proposal under which Poland would supply Kyiv with Soviet-era fighters and in turn receive American F-16s to make up for their loss.
Poland has been less than enthusiastic about the idea, at least publicly, largely because Russia has warned that supporting Ukraine’s air force would be seen in Moscow as participating in the war and could create a risk of retaliation.
Last Updated: 13:21 Monday, 07 March 2022
47m ago

With neutrality enshrined in their constitutions, akin to their request of Ukraine.

Very good point

 

[The Great Soprendo]

I'm afraid if that means parking "net zero" for a while, then so be it.

How about we accelerate our journey towards it instead? Wind, tidal, solar, hydrogen, ground source, hydro, hell even nuclear (though that does of course take time to develop). Spend some real money on supporting it, building a highly distributed and self sufficient green economy to actually solve our energy security, kill off income for Putin and the Middle East, AND save the planet. Win win.

 

[safcforever]

No one can “know” but people can be very confident. Simply put, nuclear war is completely counter to all of Putin’s aims and objectives. He might be insane, but he doesn’t act counter to his own interests.

Serious question then.
Not to you I guess but what’s the point in nuclear weapons?

 

[UpTheDuff]

How about we accelerate our journey towards it instead? Wind, tidal, solar, hydrogen, ground source, hydro, hell even nuclear (though that does of course take time to develop). Spend some real money on supporting it, building a green economy to actually solve our energy security AND save the planet. Win win.

Exactly. A shock like this where a new system is needed is the perfect opportunity to invest in and accelerate zero carbon energy generation including nuclear.

 

[Sweeper]

How about we accelerate our journey towards it instead? Wind, tidal, solar, hydrogen, ground source, hydro, hell even nuclear (though that does of course take time to develop). Spend some real money on supporting it, building a green economy to actually solve our energy security AND save the planet. Win win.

No objection to that at all - but as I understand it, the only realistic way to bridge the implied supply-gap in the period of "development" for things like nuclear, is by things like fracking and burning more fossil fuels from elsewhere in the world.

For my part, I think nuclear is the answer long-term, supplemented by the less reliable renewable like solar and wind. I just don't think we can, or should, give Russia a ten year "grace period" whilst we get there.

 

[Market Where?]

Kremlin demands Ukraine recognise Crimea as Russian​

Russia has said that it can stop operations at "any moment" if Ukraine meets Russian conditions.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Ukraine must recognise Crimea as Russian, and Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states.
In addition to this, Peskov says Ukraine must amend its constitution and reject claims to enter any bloc (like Nato, for example).
He adds that Russia will finish the "demilitarisation" of Ukraine, and if these conditions are met Russian military action will "stop in a moment".
The Kremlin spokesman insists that Russia is not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine.

There we go. That's where I think a lot of us thought we'd get to.

Ukraine should agree to referendums in the three regions to be overseen by international observers. Agree to never attack Russia. Agree to never pursue nuclear weapons - again with agreed UN inspections. The West needs to also step in and offer a pathway to Russia to join NATO and EU.

 

[Sweeper]

Serious question then.
Not to you I guess but what’s the point in nuclear weapons?

At this stage it's a deterrent value.

It's like a stand-off in a movie where two people are pointing guns at each other - both would rather the guns weren't present at all, but neither wants to be the one to lower their gun first.

 

[UpTheDuff]

Serious question then.
Not to you I guess but what’s the point in nuclear weapons?

A deterrent. This forum and NATO’s comments show that most people and decision makers are too scared to take the risk. For me I would accept a 5-10% risk that Putin would fire the nukes but most wouldn’t. And the nukes have then served their purpose.

 

[safcforever]

Why has Putin and Macron been in regular phone conversations? Are they best buds or something?

Because Putin runs rings round him.
Let him talk him into a safe passage, but set it up to lead to Russia and Belarus.

Can’t wait to see what he convinces him to do next

 

[UpTheDuff]

Why has Putin and Macron been in regular phone conversations? Are they best buds or something?

I wonder of Putin speaks French so is more confident of speaking to Macron without the risk of interpreters distorting things or being spies.

 

[The Truth]

A deterrent. This forum and NATO’s comments show that most people and decision makers are too scared to take the risk. For me I would accept a 5-10% risk that Putin would fire the nukes but most wouldn’t. And the nukes have then served their purpose.

If that percentage risk increased by 7% then you're effectively saying you're up for a game of Russian Roulette.

 

[The Great Soprendo]

No objection to that at all - but as I understand it, the only realistic way to bridge the implied supply-gap in the period of "development" for things like nuclear, is by things like fracking and burning more fossil fuels from elsewhere in the world.

For my part, I think nuclear is the answer long-term, supplemented by the less reliable renewable like solar and wind. I just don't think we can, or should, give Russia a ten year "grace period" whilst we get there.

That doesn't mean putting net zero on hold then, it just means finding a supply of hydrocarbons from elsewhere until we build our net zero economy. Either way, accelerating the energy transition is more important than ever.

 

[safcforever]

If he moves into a NATO country then I've no doubt that NATO will put boots on the ground against them. The key question for NATO will be do they only defend the NATO country involved or do they go the full monty and take Russia.

They could easily ruin Russia. Maybe not take it fully but we’d take away their nuke threat and limit their army

 

[FC United of Manchester]

Serious question then.
Not to you I guess but what’s the point in nuclear weapons?

There isn't any point to them whatsoever.
The problem is that not everybody trusts everybody else not to have them though so they want to keep them.