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Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

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Hugh Gains said:
Unprovoked? They've been fighting in eastern Ukraine since 2014. Escalation inevitable with conflict Ukraine's flirtation with NATO and international foreign policy. [See repeated warnings below]

All this is happening despite:

A neutral Ukraine being beneficial to both sides
Its obvious geographical importance to Russia
Repeated warnings from Putin
No logical reason for the US/NATO to be there, literally no positive outcome could come from it

"NATO is the mechanism for securing the U.S. presence in Europe." - US Secretary of State James Baker

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Countless experts told us what we were facing if we continued to meddle, and they were ignored. Putin told us what would happen, and it is happening.

Can you not just admit that meddling was reckless and unnecessary?

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Does this make this war just, moral and virtuous? No, it hardly ever is. Can I see the events that have played a part in leading to this? Yes. Could this have been avoided? Yes. Is it solely at the hands of terrible Ivan? No. Is it a tragedy? Yes.


Bonus Round

Iraq and Saddam, all about removing a despot.

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Don't you just love those sovereign nations.

Click to expand...

All of that bullshit appears to be premised on the idea that Putin has a moral, political or legal right to dictate to a free and sovereign Ukraine as to what it can and cannot do.

He doesn't. It's absolutely none of his business whatsoever.

The line of "in not pandering to a murderous dictator, everything that happens when the murderous dictator gets annoyed is our fault" is as geo-politically and historically illiterate, as it is weak as p*ss.

This is Vladimir Putin's fault. Ukraine carries no blame for simply wishing to decide it's own future and place in the world. The West carries no blame for refusing to shun a free and democratic Ukraine.
 
Hugh Gains said:
Unprovoked? They've been fighting in eastern Ukraine since 2014. Escalation inevitable with conflict Ukraine's flirtation with NATO and international foreign policy. [See repeated warnings below]

All this is happening despite:

A neutral Ukraine being beneficial to both sides
Its obvious geographical importance to Russia
Repeated warnings from Putin
No logical reason for the US/NATO to be there, literally no positive outcome could come from it

"NATO is the mechanism for securing the U.S. presence in Europe." - US Secretary of State James Baker

Logon or register to see this image



Countless experts told us what we were facing if we continued to meddle, and they were ignored. Putin told us what would happen, and it is happening.

Can you not just admit that meddling was reckless and unnecessary?

You must be logged on to see media items

You must be logged on to see media items

You must be logged on to see media items







Does this make this war just, moral and virtuous? No, it hardly ever is. Can I see the events that have played a part in leading to this? Yes. Could this have been avoided? Yes. Is it solely at the hands of terrible Ivan? No. Is it a tragedy? Yes.


Bonus Round

Iraq and Saddam, all about removing a despot.

Logon or register to see this image

Don't you just love those sovereign nations.

Click to expand...
Bottom line is that it should be up to the people of Ukraine to decide if they want to join NATO or the EU.
If we value democracy it's up to them to choose their policies NOT Russia. If they decide to pursue joining NATO or the EU then their application should be judged on it's merit regarding entry criteria NOT on what Putin wants.
 
Az* said:
It is quite similar on some ways. The invasion that is. Massive amount of inexperienced conscripts sent into another part of Russia who then get their arses handed to them. Russia then sends in more experienced troops and heavier weapons.

Hopefully the ending is a bit different this time.
Click to expand...
They are not being sent into another part of Russia, they are being sent into another country. But yes you are right!
 
FC United of Manchester said:
Bottom line is that it should be up to the people of Ukraine to decide if they want to join NATO or the EU.
If we value democracy it's up to them to choose their policies NOT Russia. If they decide to pursue joining NATO or the EU then their application should be judged on it's merit regarding entry criteria NOT on what Putin wants.
Click to expand...

Agreed and it’s only going to push the likes of Finland and Sweden to consider joining as they will want protection from the potential for Russia to invade their own countries. If it was Finland that was wanting to join NATO I wonder if it would be viewed differently.
 
Be honest, say any of us was a Ukranian holed up with your children in one of these cities being bombed. On the tv you see all these Nato people condemning things, wearing their blue and white trinkets, having loads of meeting, clapping and saying 'we are with you' but not doing anything that will actually help such as making a no fly zone or sending troops to help. Well, in all honesty, personally I'd be telling us all to get f@#ked.
 
Walmo said:
Be honest, say any of us was a Ukranian holed up with your children in one of these cities being bombed. On the tv you see all these Nato people condemning things, wearing their blue and white trinkets, having loads of meeting, clapping and saying 'we are with you' but not doing anything that will actually help such as making a no fly zone or sending troops to help. Well, in all honesty, personally I'd be telling us all to get f@#ked.
Click to expand...

Definitely. The longer the free world cowers in the corner, the more emboldened Putin will become. A decade of cowering has caused this. Ukraine won't be the end because the West has already demonstrated it's willingness to run away (whilst telling everyone how angry it is).
 
Sweeper said:
All of that bullshit appears to be premised on the idea that Putin has a moral, political or legal right to dictate to a free and sovereign Ukraine as to what it can and cannot do.

He doesn't. It's absolutely none of his business whatsoever.

The line of "in not pandering to a murderous dictator, everything that happens when the murderous dictator gets annoyed is our fault" is as geo-politically and historically illiterate, as it is weak as p*ss.

This is Vladimir Putin's fault. Ukraine carries no blame for simply wishing to decide it's own future and place in the world. The West carries no blame for refusing to shun a free and democratic Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Yes, @Hugh Gains is victim blaming. What he is saying is akin to saying that a domestic abuse victim knew their spouse was violent and was warned to not annoy them or reach out to friends for support so deserved being beaten. And then that if they defend themselves and get beaten even more that’s just how it goes.
 
Az* said:
It is quite similar on some ways. The invasion that is. Massive amount of inexperienced conscripts sent into another part of Russia who then get their arses handed to them. Russia then sends in more experienced troops and heavier weapons.

Hopefully the ending is a bit different this time.
Click to expand...

Chechnya shows if anything the challenge for Russia. It took them 8 years to subdue the insurgency and that doesn’t include the first war. Geographically it’s also a little bit more favourable to them and a fraction of the size meaning they didn’t have the supply and scale challenges so much.

It was horrifically bloody but Shows that reality that Putin will likely be bogged down in Ukraine for years costing him an arm and a leg. Ukraine will be levelled in some cities
 
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