Positives

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I'll give him a chance but the most worrying quote for me was that the powers that be liked that "he can work within a structure".

Is that their no.1 priority I wonder, a yes man ?

I could just be twisting the words to suit a negative agenda but surely I can be forgiven for that given the shitehawks in charge.
 


This will bring an entirely new culture and set of standards to our club. The aim being a long term programme of enhancement to all aspects of running the club.

I do understand the clamour for names like Pearson and skp but they would not be a good fit even if they wanted to come at this time.

Poyet was interviewed and he didn't get the job/ want the job. So what, he isn't the messiah.

Whether you like his track record or not Johnson is the considered and first choice pick of those who know what the plan is and seek someone to execute that part of it.
 
The Beautiful Game said:
If you’re able to fool yourself like that then I’m jealous. That sounds sarcastic but I’m being genuine.

No one wants to be disappointed, angry or miserable despite what people say on here. Fact is in the modern era we know far, far more about managers and players than we used to. We’ve got social media, myriad of stats websites to learn what we don’t know as well. There’s years of data to judge these appointments and we keep making bad decisions. It’s impossible for me to look at all that and still be positive and I’m genuinely trying to be.

If this comes off it will be a massive shock. We’ll get people coming on and telling people like me they were right all along and I’ll have to take my medicine. If it does I’ll gladly take it. But it would be one of the first times I’ve had to. To be successful here Johnson needs to pretty much double his win percentage that he’s managed at every club he’s been at. If he does then it’s 1 in a 100 and whoever made the appointment is either a visionary or incredibly lucky. There’s nothing he’s done to suggest he’s got what it takes.

I did first time round actually. But when you put him alongside the other candidates he’s streets ahead. One of those was in the premier league where the vast majority of managers will have win rates between 30 and 40% for starters. He’s also actually improved other clubs and gotten promotion from this league and the championship (I think I’m right in saying).

Johnson’s best achievement is finishing in the top half. At least cook and the cowleys et al have a history of improving teams. They’ve done something that justifies another team looking at them.
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I’ve found myself sounding like I’m backing Johnson as my preferred choice. That’s not the case at all, it’s just where the posts end up going when you have people presenting the argument against him with no balance and to such ridiculous extremes (not you by the way, you’re at least presenting a reasoned argument which I’ll always respect no matter whether I agree with the opinion/conclusion) . It’s not the worst appointment we could have made, it isn’t the nail in the coffin of the club, it hasn’t been done to spite us etc.

On the win percentage point. Is it a fair measure to gauge performance and compare against other managers? It’s all relative isn’t it? Johnson managing Sunderland at this level is inevitably going to improve upon the win percentage that he had with Oldham and Barnsley (who weren’t the same team/club they are now) at this level or with Bristol City in the league above.
 
Howard the Duck said:
I’ve found myself sounding like I’m backing Johnson as my preferred choice. That’s not the case at all, it’s just where the posts end up going when you have people presenting the argument against him with no balance and to such ridiculous extremes (not you by the way, you’re at least presenting a reasoned argument which I’ll always respect no matter whether I agree with the opinion/conclusion) . It’s not the worst appointment we could have made, it isn’t the nail in the coffin of the club, it hasn’t been done to spite us etc.

On the win percentage point. Is it a fair measure to gauge performance and compare against other managers? It’s all relative isn’t it? Johnson managing Sunderland at this level is inevitably going to improve upon the win percentage that he had with Oldham and Barnsley (who weren’t the same team/club they are now) at this level or with Bristol City in the league above.
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Win percentage isn’t the be all and end all agreed. As I’ve pointed out with Pearson’s spell at Watford 32% in the premier league with a team he took over at the bottom is actually ok. My concern is the consistency of Johnson’s. With Oldham or Barnsley in league one or two the managers who make it to the top will normally turn one club around and have a good season. He’s never done that. His whole career points to keeping us where we are, there’s nothing to suggest his win rate will improve here. Parkinson’s didn’t.
 
SydneyFan said:
I'll give him a chance but the most worrying quote for me was that the powers that be liked that "he can work within a structure".

Is that their no.1 priority I wonder, a yes man ?

I could just be twisting the words to suit a negative agenda but surely I can be forgiven for that given the shitehawks in charge.
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You definitely are. I can’t see how that equates to a yes man at all.

When anyone recruits they’re doing so to a specific role and remit. If someone meets those criteria then they fit the structure, whether or not they’re a yes man doesn’t come in to it for me.

Being able to work in cohesion with the SpD probably is one of the criteria but that surely just makes sense rather than being a negative?
The Beautiful Game said:
Win percentage isn’t the be all and end all agreed. As I’ve pointed out with Pearson’s spell at Watford 32% in the premier league with a team he took over at the bottom is actually ok. My concern is the consistency of Johnson’s. With Oldham or Barnsley in league one or two the managers who make it to the top will normally turn one club around and have a good season. He’s never done that. His whole career points to keeping us where we are, there’s nothing to suggest his win rate will improve here. Parkinson’s didn’t.
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If it doesn’t then I don’t think he’ll last long. Speakman made it clear that we want/need promotion in the short term. One thing about the new structure is that underperforming head coaches can be replaced far more easily and inexpensively without causing nearly as much disruption.
 
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Howard the Duck said:
You definitely are. I can’t see how that equates to a yes man at all.

When anyone recruits they’re doing so to a specific role and remit. If someone meets those criteria then they fit the structure, whether or not they’re a yes man doesn’t come in to it for me.

Being able to work in cohesion with the SpD probably is one of the criteria but that surely just makes sense rather than being a negative?

If it doesn’t then I don’t think he’ll last long. Speakman made it clear that we want/need promotion in the short term. One thing about the new structure is that underperforming head coaches can be replaced far more easily and inexpensively without causing nearly as much disruption.
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As I say perhaps I am. I've always been a glass half empty bloke anyway but the current lot have converted me towards glass broken.
 
Sluper Klev said:
This will bring an entirely new culture and set of standards to our club. The aim being a long term programme of enhancement to all aspects of running the club.

I do understand the clamour for names like Pearson and skp but they would not be a good fit even if they wanted to come at this time.

Poyet was interviewed and he didn't get the job/ want the job. So what, he isn't the messiah.

Whether you like his track record or not Johnson is the considered and first choice pick of those who know what the plan is and seek someone to execute that part of it.
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I agree, i think the change in structure and culture will take time to embed but it has to happen. Time to look at the whole picture and not just the manager, despite him not being my choice they all need a chance to turn things around
 
The Beautiful Game said:
Johnson’s best achievement is finishing in the top half. At least cook and the cowleys et al have a history of improving teams. They’ve done something that justifies another team looking at them.
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Listen at @Summerbee He took Oldham from a relegation spot to the heady heights of ninth man. It only took him two years to do it as well, what more do you want :lol: :lol::lol::lol:
 
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LostTheDressingRoom said:
Got to give him a chance, at least 2-3 windows
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We've got no option but to give him a chance. Problem is it's likely he won't get three windows. It'll be another Parkinson, finish where we are now this season but he'll be given the benefit of the doubt as it was Parkinson who put us here then sacked a quarter of the way into next season when he invariably goes on one of us his monumental long runs without a win and losing most of the time.
Mind if he goes on one of those long runs this season he will be gone by the summer
 
The Beautiful Game said:
I did first time round actually. But when you put him alongside the other candidates he’s streets ahead. One of those was in the premier league where the vast majority of managers will have win rates between 30 and 40% for starters. He’s also actually improved other clubs and gotten promotion from this league and the championship (I think I’m right in saying).

Johnson’s best achievement is finishing in the top half. At least cook and the cowleys et al have a history of improving teams. They’ve done something that justifies another team looking at them.
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That was my point. People are complaining about win percentages without taking into account the standard and the expectation of the club - they'll complain about Johnson's win record at a club with zero resources and fighting relegation like Oldham, all because he didn't have them walking the league with an 80% win ratio. It's never mentioned with Pearson because it would show how ridiculous it is to judge a manager on wind percentages.

As for a history of improving teams, I already explained this in another post with extensive research and facts from Johnson's management career. He's improved every team he's managed.
 
Summerbee said:
That was my point. People are complaining about win percentages without taking into account the standard and the expectation of the club - they'll complain about Johnson's win record at a club with zero resources and fighting relegation like Oldham, all because he didn't have them walking the league with an 80% win ratio. It's never mentioned with Pearson because it would show how ridiculous it is to judge a manager on wind percentages.

As for a history of improving teams, I already explained this in another post with extensive research and facts from Johnson's management career. He's improved every team he's managed.
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If he's done so well why are Bristol City and Barnsley fans laughing at us all so much?
 
Smiler said:
If he's done so well why are Bristol City and Barnsley fans laughing at us all so much?
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As far as I can tell, Barnsley fans are bitter that he chose to leave them for a club that was always close to his heart. He left them in a cup final with six straight wins, which was the start of a run which took them to the edge of the play-offs in the Championship before they had to sell most of the team he had worked with and developed, for considerable fees too. Bristol City fans are frustrated that they failed to get into the play-offs, but they should remember he took them over while they were in the relegation zone.

Pep Guardiola thought Johnson's side gave him more to think about than most Premier League teams, but people would rather listen to Arthur the Barnsley fan and Barry the Robin.
 
Summerbee said:
As far as I can tell, Barnsley fans are bitter that he chose to leave them for a club that was always close to his heart. He left them in a cup final with six straight wins, which was the start of a run which took them to the edge of the play-offs in the Championship before they had to sell most of the team he had worked with and developed, for considerable fees too. Bristol City fans are frustrated that they failed to get into the play-offs, but they should remember he took them over while they were in the relegation zone.

Pep Guardiola thought Johnson's side gave him more to think about than most Premier League teams, but people would rather listen to Arthur the Barnsley fan and Barry the Robin.
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Have your rest their comments because they don't match up. Had a habit of going on long good runs and then very shit ones. Had a habit of changing tactics mid-game and players don't have a clue what they are doing. Had favourite players that are undroppable no matter how bad they are playing, good runs usually come about because his favourite players are injured/unavailable and he had to change the team, laughs in interviews when in the middle of losing 8 games in a row and getting knocked out of cup games to non-league teams. Has never finished in the top 6 and no matter how you dress that up it's shite.
The amount of f***ing shit points far outweigh his good.
I'll say it again, good managers start their careers really well, they don't take over 7 years to have a team reach into the playoffs, in fact they have had a promotion or two by then no matter what club they were in charge of
 
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