When do we start talking about Jos Buttler?

[chunkyshanhawk53]

I think it’s unfair to judge a keeper on stumpings in this current era, when they have two fast bowlers who have took more wickets than any other England bowlers in history!!

And sub standard international spinners in England

Unless we expecting stumpings of Broad and Anderson

I’ve given you plenty of contemporary keepers, including Bairstow. I’ve also given you several West Indians and Saffers, where they have had poor or no spinners

I’ve found a single keeper with no test stumping. And that was Blakey. With 2 tests

As per the other thread, he has one test ton. Only one keeper I can find (Paine) has a lower ton to test ratio. I’ve just shown that no keeper has a lower stumping to test ratio.

He played well last week. but he’s at the bottom of the list for virtually everything. I don’t get it

 

[Voice of fair play]

I’ve given you plenty of contemporary keepers, including Bairstow. I’ve also given you several West Indians and Saffers, where they have had poor or no spinners

I’ve found a single keeper with no test stumping. And that was Blakey. With 2 tests

As per the other thread, he has one test ton. Only one keeper I can find (Paine) has a lower ton to test ratio. I’ve just shown that no keeper has a lower stumping to test ratio.

He played well last week. but he’s at the bottom of the list for virtually everything. I don’t get it

Sometimes I am confused why cricket organisations actually pay selectors as reading this board sometimes all you need to do is pick the 6 batsman with the best averages, keeper with best stats and 4 bowlers with best stats.

Yeah totally waste of money paying selectors

 

[TheRey]

I think it’s unfair to judge a keeper on stumpings in this current era, when they have two fast bowlers who have took more wickets than any other England bowlers in history!! therefore taking the bulk of the wickets

And sub standard international spinners in England

Unless we expecting stumpings of Broad and Anderson

Fuck me man

I’ve given you plenty of contemporary keepers, including Bairstow. I’ve also given you several West Indians and Saffers, where they have had poor or no spinners

I’ve found a single keeper with no test stumping. And that was Blakey. With 2 tests

As per the other thread, he has one test ton. Only one keeper I can find (Paine) has a lower ton to test ratio. I’ve just shown that no keeper has a lower stumping to test ratio.

He played well last week. but he’s at the bottom of the list for virtually everything. I don’t get it

He won't listen. Jos is perfect, untouchable and there'll always be an excuse.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Fuck me man

He won't listen. Jos is perfect, untouchable and there'll always be an excuse.

Surely it’s a perfectly reasonable argument that when we have the two leading wicket takers ever in England both fast bowlers taking the wickets there is less opportunity for stumpings.

People using stats to use their argument in one sense,surely would have to accept that?

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Sometimes I am confused why cricket organisations actually pay selectors as reading this board sometimes all you need to do is pick the 6 batsman with the best averages, keeper with best stats and 4 bowlers with best stats.

Yeah totally waste of money paying selectors

That’s not even an argument.

I’m not discussing his county performances. I’m discussing his test match delivery. And that’s driven by his stats.

The argument flies if you’re talking about Vaughan vs Hildreth. But it only works if Vaughan actually scores runs at test level. If it doesn’t, it’s a failed choice.

Buttler has failed as a pick. He’s played 46 times. He’s had a handful of good knocks. last week was superb.

Surely it’s a perfectly reasonable argument that when we have the two leading wicket takers ever in England both fast bowlers taking the wickets there is less opportunity for stumpings.

People using stats to use their argument in one sense,surely would have to accept that?

Yes.

And Junior Murray with Walsh and Ambrose?
De Kock with Steyn and N’tini?
Bairstow with....oh Broad and Anderson?
And the other stat that @Ghfd showed last week was that he was near the bottom on catches per test. Surely with the seam bowler he should be at the top?

you can’t be at the bottom for everything and somehow be the best

 

[Voice of fair play]

That’s not even an argument.

I’m not discussing his county performances. I’m discussing his test match delivery. And that’s driven by his stats.

The argument flies if you’re talking about Vaughan vs Hildreth. But it only works if Vaughan actually scores runs at test level. If it doesn’t, it’s a failed choice.

Buttler has failed as a pick. He’s played 46 times. He’s had a handful of good knocks. last week was superb.

Yeah of course I take that point, was trying to get across the selectors the experts obviously simply just don’t go off stats

As just said surely it’s fair to say and the stats will show with Anderson and Broad in the side stumpings are less likely and opportunities less frequent?

That said tbf Buttler is obviously in this side for his batting ability rather than keeping ability.

And tbf to your argument the fact Somerset preferred Kieswetter over Buttler when both there prompting his move to Lancashire backs up the view there is better keepers than him.

 

[TheRey]

That’s not even an argument.

I’m not discussing his county performances. I’m discussing his test match delivery. And that’s driven by his stats.

The argument flies if you’re talking about Vaughan vs Hildreth. But it only works if Vaughan actually scores runs at test level. If it doesn’t, it’s a failed choice.

Buttler has failed as a pick. He’s played 46 times. He’s had a handful of good knocks. last week was superb.

Yes.

And Junior Murray with Walsh and Ambrose?
De Kock with Steyn and N’tini?
Bairstow with....oh Broad and Anderson?
And the other stat that @Ghfd showed last week was that he was near the bottom on catches per test. Surely with the seam bowler he should be at the top?

you can’t be at the bottom for everything and somehow be the best

Wasting your time, chunks. He'll find a way to say it's the Dukes ball, no other keeper has to keep against it.
And find a way to forget about Bairstow

 

[Voice of fair play]

That’s not even an argument.

I’m not discussing his county performances. I’m discussing his test match delivery. And that’s driven by his stats.

The argument flies if you’re talking about Vaughan vs Hildreth. But it only works if Vaughan actually scores runs at test level. If it doesn’t, it’s a failed choice.

Buttler has failed as a pick. He’s played 46 times. He’s had a handful of good knocks. last week was superb.

Yes.

And Junior Murray with Walsh and Ambrose?
De Kock with Steyn and N’tini?
Bairstow with....oh Broad and Anderson?
And the other stat that @Ghfd showed last week was that he was near the bottom on catches per test. Surely with the seam bowler he should be at the top?

you can’t be at the bottom for everything and somehow be the best

Cant remember him dropping many of the quick bowlers mind

 

[Ghfd]

I’m staying out of this unless someone disses bess

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Yeah of course I take that point, was trying to get across the selectors the experts obviously simply just don’t go off stats

As just said surely it’s fair to say and the stats will show with Anderson and Broad in the side stumpings are less likely and opportunities less frequent?

That said tbf Buttler is obviously in this side for his batting ability rather than keeping ability.

And tbf to your argument the fact Somerset preferred Kieswetter over Buttler when both there prompting his move to Lancashire backs up the view there is better keepers than him.

Well yes. But he hasn’t delivered as a batsman.

in the long list of keepers I showed, there was one below him in centuries per test. Tim Paine.

and a handful below in averages. Russell and the like. He’s miles below Watling, De Kock, Dhoni and other modern day keepers.

I get the argument he bats with the tail, so do most of them. And he’s had the luxury of 5.

So if he’s the weakest keeper, and amongst the weakest batsmen. Why?

Cant remember him dropping many of the quick bowlers mind

Nor can I. But he’s at the bottom of the stats for it. And if you’re arguing that he won’t get many stumping chances because of the quicks, you can’t have it both ways.

unless we as a country get fewer caught behinds than other countries.

 

[TheRey]

Well yes. But he hasn’t delivered as a batsman.

in the long list of keepers I showed, there was one below him in centuries per test. Tim Paine.

and a handful below in averages. Russell and the like. He’s miles below Watling, De Kock, Dhoni and other modern day keepers.

I get the argument he bats with the tail, so do most of them. And he’s had the luxury of 5.

So if he’s the weakest keeper, and amongst the weakest batsmen. Why?
so if he’s not the best keeper. Proben

Nor can I. But he’s at the bottom of the stats for it. And if you’re arguing that he won’t get many stumping chances because of the quicks, you can’t have it both ways.

unless we as a country get fewer caught behinds than other countries.

Despite the fact that as we all know, England has the PERFECT conditions for caught behind.

Certainly more than SA/Aus

 

[Steak Pie]

And tbf to your argument the fact Somerset preferred Kieswetter over Buttler when both there prompting his move to Lancashire backs up the view there is better keepers than him.

Not getting into this but just as a point of order: There are 2 'keepers ahead of him now at Lancs, even when he was dropped by England he couldn't get the gloves off Alex Davies or Dane Vilas.

 

[rentaghost]

I think it’s unfair to judge a keeper on stumpings in this current era, when they have two fast bowlers who have took more wickets than any other England bowlers in history!! therefore taking the bulk of the wickets

And sub standard international spinners in England

Unless we expecting stumpings of Broad and Anderson

I’m all for defending Buttler but the stats are against you here. I would say it’s more to do with how many you miss. He did miss one last test but I’m not sure if there has been many more.

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Despite the fact that as we all know, England has the PERFECT conditions for caught behind.

Certainly more than SA/Aus

Tomorrow, if I can be arsed, I may do the stats on this. If I can be arsed mind

 

[Voice of fair play]

Well yes. But he hasn’t delivered as a batsman.

in the long list of keepers I showed, there was one below him in centuries per test. Tim Paine.

and a handful below in averages. Russell and the like. He’s miles below Watling, De Kock, Dhoni and other modern day keepers.

I get the argument he bats with the tail, so do most of them. And he’s had the luxury of 5.

So if he’s the weakest keeper, and amongst the weakest batsmen. Why?
so if he’s not the best keeper. Proben

Nor can I. But he’s at the bottom of the stats for it. And if you’re arguing that he won’t get many stumping chances because of the quicks, you can’t have it both ways.

unless we as a country get fewer caught behinds than other countries.

Well yeah get that point, but if we can’t remember him dropping catches of the seamers we surely can’t criticise him for his catches stats of them!

He can’t make them happen and increase, the catches have to actually come his way, although I fully agree with Anderson and Broad in the side you would expect more

I’m all for defending Buttler but the stats are against you here. I would say it’s more to do with how many you miss. He did miss one last test but I’m not sure if there has been many more.

Well yeah get the stats argument in general but surely we can’t criticise his stats against the fast bowlers when he hasn’t dropped any of them!

 

[rentaghost]

Despite the fact that as we all know, England has the PERFECT conditions for caught behind.

Certainly more than SA/Aus

What do you think the main mode of dismissal in SA and Aus is like? I would suggest you get more in Aus with bounce making Lbw and bowled less than it would in England?

 

[Voice of fair play]

Not getting into this but just as a point of order: There are 2 'keepers ahead of him now at Lancs, even when he was dropped by England he couldn't get the gloves off Alex Davies or Dane Vilas.

Well yeah that is why I made the point about Kieswetter

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Well yeah get that point, but if we can’t remember him dropping catches of the seamers we surely can’t criticise him for his catches stats of them!

He can’t make them happen and increase, the catches have to actually come his way, although I fully agree with Anderson and Broad in the side you would expect more

As I say, you can’t have it every way. You can’t argue Anderson and Broad as a reason for no stumping and then dismiss the fewer catches. I’m not stupid enough to dismiss the attack as important, but it’s bizarre how poor his stats are relative to others, particularly stumping.

That’s fine (I guess), if he’s excelling with the bat. But he ain’t. He’s ok. he’ll get you a 30 or so every other game. Ian Healy did that, but he was a quality keeper.

he’s ok ish at both, but thats not good enough

 

[Voice of fair play]

Tomorrow, if I can be arsed, I may do the stats on this. If I can be arsed mind

I think tbf if we have stats of him missing loads of chances that would be a bigger stat to back up your argument

 

[rentaghost]

As I say, you can’t have it every way. You can’t argue Anderson and Broad as a reason for no stumping and then dismiss the fewer catches. I’m not stupid enough to dismiss the attack as important, but it’s bizarre how poor his stats are relative to others, particularly stumping.

That’s fine (I guess), if he’s excelling with the bat. But he ain’t. He’s ok. he’ll get you a 30 or so every other game. Ian Healy did that, but he was a quality keeper.

he’s ok ish at both, but thats not good enough

If a keeper has 13 stumpings and missed 5 is that better or worse than a keeper that has no stumpings and missed one? There is only context in those stats if you know how many stumping chances have been missed by all keepers.