Paul Collingwood on Loyalty

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stephen cartwright said:
coughlin was tapped by Mike Newell with the suggestion he would get more chance to play for England, as the stars of notts are on TV a lot, compared to Durham

I can see the appeal of Surrey and money but again Jennings to lancs is another example of more TV appearances enhancing his chances of again playing for England.

We see it in football, a player gets an England call up and within a year they are off to pastures new, with the supposedly more high profile teams.

This will only increase from 2020 onwards with the FTECB franchises. That will be tapping up heaven for the counties with teams involved
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To be frank that's a load of bollocks, many Durham players have been selected for England.

I am sure you don't get selected for been on TV more:lol:
 
Voice of fair play said:
To be frank that's a load of bollocks, many Durham players have been selected for England.

I am sure you don't get selected for been on TV more:lol:
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It is not bollocks you cheeky sod. It's always been stated that the selectors take notice of games on TV for only the last forty years.

In fact an innings in the b and h final or NatWest often got a player a late call up for a winter tour.

It's very naive of you to think otherwise to be honest and I thought you had more nous than this
 
stephen cartwright said:
It is not bollocks you cheeky sod. It's always been stated that the selectors take notice of games on TV for only the last forty years.

In fact an innings in the b and h final or NatWest often got a player a late call up for a winter tour.

It's very naive of you to think otherwise to be honest and I thought you had more nous than this
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I find the whole of this thing both in football and cricket that you get selected because of playing for a so called fashionable club both childish, boring and wrong.

Selectors and managers of both football and cricket at international cricket are under immense pressure to win games,therefore will pick the best team/squad to help them win them games,why would they do anything else?

For people to suggest managers and selectors write down their best squad then start scratching them out because of what club they play for laughable tbh.
 
Ageing trundler said:
I've said it before, very few who leave DCCC go on to better themselves. Some don't appreciate what we have up here.
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Agree wholeheartedly. Who has actually done it?

Stoneman the only one? Certainly with England, but I very much doubt he'll win as many medals down there.
 
Voice of fair play said:
I find the whole of this thing both in football and cricket that you get selected because of playing for a so called fashionable club both childish, boring and wrong.

Selectors and managers of both football and cricket at international cricket or under immense pressure to win games,therefore will pick the best team/squad to help them win them games,why would they do anything else?

For people to suggest managers and selectors write down their best squad then start scratching them out because of what club they play for laughable tbh.
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Childish, boring and wrong

It's the reality man. How you can't see that is beyond me.

Cricketers for over forty years have gained recognition through performances on TV.

Look at the whole idea of franchise cricket FFS, to see how that will attract all the talent to the right club's deemed TV worthy to appear in it

Can you not understand that?

As for selectors picking the right team. In recent history we've seen Beckham, Rooney guaranteed selection despite being unfit.

Why are players wanting to play for Notts and Surrey? Money and TV highlight both these clubs.

It's as clear as day
 
Voice of fair play said:
I find the whole of this thing both in football and cricket that you get selected because of playing for a so called fashionable club both childish, boring and wrong.

Selectors and managers of both football and cricket at international cricket are under immense pressure to win games,therefore will pick the best team/squad to help them win them games,why would they do anything else?

For people to suggest managers and selectors write down their best squad then start scratching them out because of what club they play for laughable tbh.
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You're wrong voice, sorry but it's DEFINITELY happened in the past and for me it will again - it DOES matter which county a player is at. Some just happen to be more fashionable than others.

Stoneman is the lead example - his performances at Durham were as good as (if not better) than Surrey. Yet a move there and he's in the England side within a year.

Coughlin was PROMISED he'd have more chance of playing for England under Newell.

I'd even argue Vince had his chances enhanced by playing at Hampshire.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they'll scribble names out, but I am 100% certain that players of some clubs will be looked upon more favourably than players at other clubs. It may be a subconscious thing, the selectors may not even do it intentionally, but it happens.

It's even more backward really, when you consider that if anything, batsmen at Durham (Borthwick, Stoneman, Jennings recently) should be given more credit for scoring runs in conditions that are notoriously harder for batting that somewhere like Southampton or The Oval.
 
stephen cartwright said:
Childish, boring and wrong

It's the reality man. How you can't see that is beyond me.

Cricketers for over forty years have gained recognition through performances on TV.

Look at the whole idea of franchise cricket FFS, to see how that will attract all the talent to the right club's deemed TV worthy to appear in it

Can you not understand that?

As for selectors picking the right team. In recent history we've seen Beckham, Rooney guaranteed selection despite being unfit.

Why are players wanting to play for Notts and Surrey? Money and TV highlight both these clubs.

It's as clear as day
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So are you saying managers and selectors purposely pick players who are not as good as others, hence putting their well paid jobs at risk!!!

Yeah that makes perfect sense:confused:

brandon said:
You're wrong voice, sorry but it's DEFINITELY happened in the past and for me it will again - it DOES matter which county a player is at. Some just happen to be more fashionable than others.

Stoneman is the lead example - his performances at Durham were as good as (if not better) than Surrey. Yet a move there and he's in the England side within a year.

Coughlin was PROMISED he'd have more chance of playing for England under Newell.

I'd even argue Vince had his chances enhanced by playing at Hampshire.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they'll scribble names out, but I am 100% certain that players of some clubs will be looked upon more favourably than players at other clubs. It may be a subconscious thing, the selectors may not even do it intentionally, but it happens.

It's even more backward really, when you consider that if anything, batsmen at Durham (Borthwick, Stoneman, Jennings recently) should be given more credit for scoring runs in conditions that are notoriously harder for batting that somewhere like Southampton or The Oval.
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Seem to you mate, why would you pick lesser players to possibly lose games rather than win them?

Surely you agree to have more chance of keeping your job if you win games,and to win games you pick the best players?
 
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Voice of fair play said:
So are you saying managers and selectors purposely pick players who are not as good as others, hence putting their well paid jobs at risk!!!

Yeah that makes perfect sense:confused:
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You have said that not me.

I'm clearly stating that teams such as Surrey and Notts are attracting the talent available due to their profile in this country

As for picking players who are not as good, that happens. Crane, Dawson, Vince and Ballance for starters
 
stephen cartwright said:
You have said that not me.

I'm clearly stating that teams such as Surrey and Notts are attracting the talent available due to their profile in this country

As for picking players who are not as good, that happens. Crane, Dawson, Vince and Ballance for starters
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It obvious rightly or wrongly them players picked were because they thought them players were the right choice at the time.

Are you suggesting that the selectors knew them were not as good as others but picked them anyway!

Surely not?
 
Voice of fair play said:
It obvious rightly or wrongly them players picked were because they thought them players were the right choice at the time.

Are you suggesting that the selectors knew them were not as good as others but picked them anyway!

Surely not?
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You keep saying that disregarding the points I've made. What you are talking about is not the point of the thread, which is Loyalty

I gave reason why players are leaving due to the TV coverage and higher profile of notts, lancs and Surrey.

What you are talking about is nowt to do with that
 
stephen cartwright said:
You keep saying that disregarding the points I've made. What you are talking about is not the point of the thread, which is Loyalty

I gave reason why players are leaving due to the TV coverage and higher profile of notts, lancs and Surrey.

What you are talking about is nowt to do with that
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I know I was simply responding to your post where you said you have more chance of been selected for your country depending which team or country you play for.

I happen to think managers and selectors pick what they think is the best players to win games.

Granted they will get it wrong and the players you mentioned were a good example of that,however at the time the selectors thought they were the right players to win them games, simple as that!
 
Voice of fair play said:
So are you saying managers and selectors purposely pick players who are not as good as others, hence putting their well paid jobs at risk!!!

Yeah that makes perfect sense:confused:



Seem to you mate, why would you pick lesser players to possibly lose games rather than win them?

Surely you agree to have more chance of keeping your job if you win games,and to win games you pick the best players?
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It's worth remembering that managers and selectors are very different.

I have zero faith in the England selectors - that's an opinion gained from experience of their absolute fuckwittery time and time again. There are more picks which fail spectacularly, than those that succeed.

England Cricket doesn't have a manager as such, or atleast the bloke in that position doesn't have a clue, because he doesn't bother his arse to watch county cricket - I'd have more faith in any of the lads on here picking the side.

On the TV point, it does make sense, when the majority of selectors and managers don't watch county cricket too often - which they've all admitted, how can they see any talent?? They watch the telly.

Newell only ever sees Notts or their opponents, Bayliss sees fuckall, Fraser only ever sees Middlesex or their opponents and Whittaker sees the most, but he can only be in one place at one time - it stands to reason that games on TV will turn their head.
 
Voice of fair play said:
I know I was simply responding to your post where you said you have more chance of been selected for your country depending which team or country you play for.

I happen to think managers and selectors pick what they think is the best players to win games.

Granted they will get it wrong and the players you mentioned were a good example of that,however at the time the selectors thought they were the right players to win them games, simple as that!
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When have you seen a Derbyshire, Gloucester player get an England cap in the last ten years?

The talent in 2020 is to be shared by eight high profile counties, who will spend the entire tournament tapping up players drafted from those not involved

Do you think the selectors will bother looking outside of those clubs?

It's the way things are in all major sports that eventually all the available talent is taken by the top teams, which are on TV 24/7
 
stephen cartwright said:
When have you seen a Derbyshire, Gloucester player get an England cap in the last ten years?

The talent in 2020 is to be shared by eight high profile counties, who will spend the entire tournament tapping up players drafted from those not involved

Do you think the selectors will bother looking outside of those clubs?

It's the way things are in all major sports that eventually all the available talent is taken by the top teams, which are on TV 24/7
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How many derby and Gloucester players would you have picked in the last ten years?

Are they any derby and Gloucester players that deserved to be picked that weren't?

Should selectors pick players from lesser counties even though not very good just to show a point?
 
Voice of fair play said:
How many derby and Gloucester players would you have picked in the last ten years?

Are they any derby and Gloucester players that deserved to be picked that weren't?

Should selectors pick players from lesser counties even though not very good just to show a point?
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It's your point. You said it was bollocks that being on TV a lot brought selection.

Despite that clearly being the case for the last forty years, performances on TV gained people headlines and tour places.

As part of the selectors are Frazer and Newell, I doubt very much they would watch any game of derbys or Gloucester unless it was at lord's or Trent bridge

Who knows what players are doing the business, they get virtually nil coverage outside their own county

Last thing.

Why are you disregarding any clear point I'm making, to state a question to suit your view?

I've given pretty clear statements and as this thread again, is about LOYALTY you questions don't reflect that

brandon said:
It's worth remembering that managers and selectors are very different.

I have zero faith in the England selectors - that's an opinion gained from experience of their absolute fuckwittery time and time again. There are more picks which fail spectacularly, than those that succeed.

England Cricket doesn't have a manager as such, or atleast the bloke in that position doesn't have a clue, because he doesn't bother his arse to watch county cricket - I'd have more faith in any of the lads on here picking the side.

On the TV point, it does make sense, when the majority of selectors and managers don't watch county cricket too often - which they've all admitted, how can they see any talent?? They watch the telly.

Newell only ever sees Notts or their opponents, Bayliss sees fuckall, Fraser only ever sees Middlesex or their opponents and Whittaker sees the most, but he can only be in one place at one time - it stands to reason that games on TV will turn their head.
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You make the point clear, that I was ridiculed as being bollocks, unbelievably
 
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brandon said:
Agree wholeheartedly. Who has actually done it?

Stoneman the only one? Certainly with England, but I very much doubt he'll win as many medals down there.
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Very short memories mind. Melvin Betts certainly springs to mind as does Mark Saggers. Both made excellent careers when they left Durham.
 
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