Allardyce and his obsession with...

[Maximus]

So are we stopping up or is Sam shit?

 

[Sima]

All managers need licences, every single one so that's a pre requisite to get a job anyway and plenty British lads have them.
How did any of them lads prove themselves? Conte won a seria B then got Juve job. That's like Dyche walking into Man Utd job! The job Allsrdyce done at Bolton was superb and his big break was a middle of road at best club in the mags who sacked him because they were where they pretty much should be and that's about mid table.
You can call Pardew but he done a good job at mags and is doing so now at Palace. Will he get a big job? Of course he won't.

Competed in European competition 11 in 14 years before Allardyce took over.

Middle of the road club at best

 

[joemcdokes]

So are we stopping up or is Sam shit?

3 games left hope he hasn't still got a howler or two left in him.

 

[Mrjardine]

Competed in European competition 11 in 14 years before Allardyce took over.

Middle of the road club at best

You's had a great spell under KK and Sir Bobby but when I was growing up you's were no better than us and after that purple patch it's returned back to normality. For me mags are top flight mid table mediocrity and we are in fairness just a little below that if talking generally.

 

[Eddie Hitler]

You have and you've completely ignored the 3 excellent players he signed cheaply, who weren't on anybody elses radar and without which we'd be already down.

Great point there mate

 

[Morny]

You have and you've completely ignored the 3 excellent players he signed cheaply, who weren't on anybody elses radar and without which we'd be already down.

To be fair, whilst those players have been canny, we've only won two matches since bringing them in. Hardly made us world beaters like...

 

[Sima]

You's had a great spell under KK and Sir Bobby but when I was growing up you's were no better than us and after that purple patch it's returned back to normality. For me mags are top flight mid table mediocrity and we are in fairness just a little below that if talking generally.

What does that have to with my point that the level we were at when Allardyce took over was higher than 'mid table at best'?

By that logic someone who was growing up around the millennium could refer to Man City as a third tier team.

'So what if they get relegated to The Championship, they're a League One team'

 

[Morny]

All managers need licences, every single one so that's a pre requisite to get a job anyway and plenty British lads have them.
How did any of them lads prove themselves? Conte won a seria B then got Juve job. That's like Dyche walking into Man Utd job! The job Allsrdyce done at Bolton was superb and his big break was a middle of road at best club in the mags who sacked him because they were where they pretty much should be and that's about mid table.
You can call Pardew but he done a good job at mags and is doing so now at Palace. Will he get a big job? Of course he won't.

Whilst Allardyce is nothing more than a bitter, up-himself arsehole, I can see the point you're trying to make. It would take an awful lot for a young British manager to get a chance with a big club here, they often go for big names and are seemingly scared to go for unfashionable British managers. There's plenty examples of managers of 'mediocre' sides taking on Real job or big jobs in Italy, so I get the point. Possibly because there's such intense coverage here that we see every single mistake a manager makes as a 'disaster'.

That said, a lot of it comes down to style as well. So for all that Allardyce done at Bolton, he done it in a very dour, restricted way. Big clubs don't want that. Throughout his career, Allardyce has made a point of 'respecting the point', so much so he struggled in the Championship when he was expected to win every game. If you play not to lose, Big Clubs don't want you, not at all (part of the reason Moyes crashed so badly at Man Utd). If Allardyce had went to Newcastle - big club, big fanbase, big stage - and actually tried to show he could adapt and play good football, he'd have lasted longer and got a big job.

Look at Rodgers - got the Liverpool job on the back of a season or two of success at Swansea, because he had a forward-thinking and entertaining style. Even Martinez (Spanish, but a British naturalised manager) got a big job after taking Everton down due to his stylish football and ideas. Redknapp got the Spurs job for having Pompey playing good football. Eddie Howe will eventually get himself a decent job (possibly the Everton one) because it's the same at Bournemouth.

There's not many examples, because so many young British managers are obsessed with "keep it tight, keep your shape, a draws not bad". If you want to reach the top, got to show a bit of ambition.

 

[nz joe]

Can't you lot wait with the Big Sam assassination until late after we are relegated ?

 

[Mrjardine]

What does that have to with my point that the level we were at when Allardyce took over was higher than 'mid table at best'?

By that logic someone who was growing up around the millennium could refer to Man City as a third tier team.

'So what if they get relegated to The Championship, they're a League One team'

Man City were taken over by a Multi billionaire ready to spend whatever it took so that's different altogether mind.
Allardyce took over a side who'd finished 13th the previous season, 7th one before and 14th before that. You were 11th when sacked halfway through season.
The mags had a few top 5 finishes which was also mixed in with a few mid table ones as well in your best period.
Since Sam left you's have finished top half once and he's been gone nearly ten year which would indicate that the golden era under KK and then Sir Bobby were exception rather than rule.
Everything about your history suggests a mid table top fight club, ours probably a lower end top flight club.

Whilst Allardyce is nothing more than a bitter, up-himself arsehole, I can see the point you're trying to make. It would take an awful lot for a young British manager to get a chance with a big club here, they often go for big names and are seemingly scared to go for unfashionable British managers. There's plenty examples of managers of 'mediocre' sides taking on Real job or big jobs in Italy, so I get the point. Possibly because there's such intense coverage here that we see every single mistake a manager makes as a 'disaster'.

That said, a lot of it comes down to style as well. So for all that Allardyce done at Bolton, he done it in a very dour, restricted way. Big clubs don't want that. Throughout his career, Allardyce has made a point of 'respecting the point', so much so he struggled in the Championship when he was expected to win every game. If you play not to lose, Big Clubs don't want you, not at all (part of the reason Moyes crashed so badly at Man Utd). If Allardyce had went to Newcastle - big club, big fanbase, big stage - and actually tried to show he could adapt and play good football, he'd have lasted longer and got a big job.

Look at Rodgers - got the Liverpool job on the back of a season or two of success at Swansea, because he had a forward-thinking and entertaining style. Even Martinez (Spanish, but a British naturalised manager) got a big job after taking Everton down due to his stylish football and ideas. Redknapp got the Spurs job for having Pompey playing good football. Eddie Howe will eventually get himself a decent job (possibly the Everton one) because it's the same at Bournemouth.

There's not many examples, because so many young British managers are obsessed with "keep it tight, keep your shape, a draws not bad". If you want to reach the top, got to show a bit of ambition.

I think it's a bit harsh to claim big Sam is this dour, long ball dinosaur to be honest mind. At Bolton he had a side which had players like Djorkeaff, hierro, okocha and Anelka. Yes he could be direct but so can a lot of managers at times. Leicester have been very direct this season but because it's an Italian in charge not a great deal gets made of it in my opinion.
Other then Moyes and Rodgers to a degree (Liverpool have spent more time out top 4 then in it last ten year) then still no British manager has been given a chance at top club. Chelsea go through managers right left and centre and not even a suggestion a British lad in the frame. Man City go after foreigner after foreigner as well. What had Pellegrini won before city came in for him? He'd failed in his big job at Real.

 

[The Fish]

I think he's got a point personally. Yes we've had some very good foreign managers over here. Mourinho, ancellotti, Wenger etc but also some f***ing awful ones as well. Gross, Ramos, Santini etc.
Going foreign is the fashionable thing to do which given so many owners are foreign is understandable but people would do well to remember the best managers we've had in this country have all been British.

Those are few and far between and we've had some shocking British managers, and a lot of young managers have had their progress stymied by the usual suspects getting gigs their CV shouldn't permit.

Premier League 16/17
AFC Bournemouth - English
Arsenal - French
Burnley - English
Chelsea - Italian
Everton - Spanish (unless he's given the boot)
Leicester City - Italian
Liverpool - German
Manchester City - Spanish
Manchester United - Dutch (Or Portuguese?)
Southampton - Dutch
Stoke City - English
Swansea City - Italian
Tottenham Hotspur - Argentinian
Watford - Spanish
West Bromwich Albion - English
West Ham United - Croatian

plus 2 of
Brighton - English
Derby - English
Hull - English
Middlesbrough - Spanish
Sheff Wed - Portuguese

Maybe 5 or 6 English managers in England's top flight. I don't believe it's because it's fashionable,

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to the number of coaches in England. That's the issue for me, a lack of investment in the training and education of English coaches, not an anti-English policy in the Premier League.

 

[Sima]

Man City were taken over by a Multi billionaire ready to spend whatever it took so that's different altogether mind.
Allardyce took over a side who'd finished 13th the previous season, 7th one before and 14th before that. You were 11th when sacked halfway through season.
The mags had a few top 5 finishes which was also mixed in with a few mid table ones as well in your best period.
Since Sam left you's have finished top half once and he's been gone nearly ten year which would indicate that the golden era under KK and then Sir Bobby were exception rather than rule.
Everything about your history suggests a mid table top fight club, ours probably a lower end top flight club.


I think it's a bit harsh to claim big Sam is this dour, long ball dinosaur to be honest mind. At Bolton he had a side which had players like Djorkeaff, hierro, okocha and Anelka. Yes he could be direct but so can a lot of managers at times. Leicester have been very direct this season but because it's an Italian in charge not a great deal gets made of it in my opinion.
Other then Moyes and Rodgers to a degree (Liverpool have spent more time out top 4 then in it last ten year) then still no British manager has been given a chance at top club. Chelsea go through managers right left and centre and not even a suggestion a British lad in the frame. Man City go after foreigner after foreigner as well. What had Pellegrini won before city came in for him? He'd failed in his big job at Real.

Why don't you say a few top 3 (5 times)? You're dumbing it down already by saying top 5. In that period, we've also finished 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th. That's 9 top 7 finishes in the time period I stated.

I wonder why we have only finished in the top half once since Allardyce was there? It's almost as if Allardyce's arrival coincided with a new ownership of the club which is still in charge...In reply to your point of Man City being taken over by a billionaire ready to spend whatever it took I could say the opposite is true of us in the last 9 years.

 

[SAFC Wilks]

Because the penny has dropped that whereas when we brought him in as manager, he was meant to be the closest thing to a guarantee against relegation, in actual fact, we are likely to get relegated, we are playing for clean sheets when we need to win games, the team he now has is underachieving when it comes to results, his selections and substitutions are consistently shite, and his response is to focus on Crystal Palace and Rafa Benitez?



Aye, its down to Nigel Pearson getting it right, and Wenger, Mourinho, van Gaal, and Pellegrini getting it wrong.

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Likely to get relegated?
Mate, we are a point behind with a game in hand - keep some faith

 

[Morny]

Man City were taken over by a Multi billionaire ready to spend whatever it took so that's different altogether mind.
Allardyce took over a side who'd finished 13th the previous season, 7th one before and 14th before that. You were 11th when sacked halfway through season.
The mags had a few top 5 finishes which was also mixed in with a few mid table ones as well in your best period.
Since Sam left you's have finished top half once and he's been gone nearly ten year which would indicate that the golden era under KK and then Sir Bobby were exception rather than rule.
Everything about your history suggests a mid table top fight club, ours probably a lower end top flight club.


I think it's a bit harsh to claim big Sam is this dour, long ball dinosaur to be honest mind. At Bolton he had a side which had players like Djorkeaff, hierro, okocha and Anelka. Yes he could be direct but so can a lot of managers at times. Leicester have been very direct this season but because it's an Italian in charge not a great deal gets made of it in my opinion.
Other then Moyes and Rodgers to a degree (Liverpool have spent more time out top 4 then in it last ten year) then still no British manager has been given a chance at top club. Chelsea go through managers right left and centre and not even a suggestion a British lad in the frame. Man City go after foreigner after foreigner as well. What had Pellegrini won before city came in for him? He'd failed in his big job at Real.

He is dour though; he sets out his team NOT to lose, and that will never cut the mustard with top clubs. The Newcastle job was quite a big job, it was acknowledged as such, and he got quite a bit to spend and he was still travelling to the likes of Derby and Wigan trying to nick a point. It's not that he's direct is the problem; he doesn't set out to win every game.

Moyes, Rodgers, Hodgson, Redknapp and even Sherwood have all been given a go at clubs chasing Champions League spots. Throughout that time, if we look at the big clubs then Man Utd have changed manager twice (once was British), Arsenal haven't changed at all, City have changed twice, Liverpool have changed four times (three times for British managers) and Spurs four times (two were British). As you point out, the exception is Chelsea but they're generally barmy and very obsessed with big-names in.

I think there is some merit in your claims, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you make out. I also don't think there's been *that* many British managers who've proven they have what top clubs want - ability to get results combined with aesthetically pleasing football.

Over the last ten years, the ones I'd put in that camp are Redknapp (got a top job = Spurs are a CL chasing club, no matter how bad a start to the season they'd had), Rodgers (got a top job), Moyes (got a top job) and Howe (still young, will get a top job imo). The only one I can think of who hasn't is Hughes, but he kind of got given a top-job midway through his time at City and struggled, but I'd imagine his time may come again (I reckon one day he'll end up at Chelsea).

 

[Mrjardine]

Why don't you say a few top 3 (5 times)? You're dumbing it down already by saying top 5. In that period, we've also finished 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th. That's 9 top 7 finishes in the time period I stated.

I wonder why we have only finished in the top half once since Allardyce was there? It's almost as if Allardyce's arrival coincided with a new ownership of the club which is still in charge...In reply to your point of Man City being taken over by a billionaire ready to spend whatever it took I could say the opposite is true of us in the last 9 years.

You's have played 22 premier league seasons and finished top 10 in 9 of them which is under half. You's had a period where you were a poor mans Man City if like when cash was being splashed but it wasn't sustainable and it's been a case of normal service resumed since.
The city owners are far wealthier than Ashley and probably aren't as concerned with turning a profit. For Ashley it's a business but he's still spent a fair bit so I think the stick he gets is unfair.
Look at the last 50 years of Newcastle and it's hardly a club you'd associate with the big boys of English football is it?

 

[Purrfect South]

English as opposed to foreign coaches. He's complained about it numerous times and even since he's been here he's made some quasi-xenophobic comments about both Benitez (fair enough, we're in a relegation scrap with them) and Klopp. He also had a moan when Monk was sacked by Swansea.....but has said nowt about the foreign coach who has them safe with a few games to spare when they looked doomed under Monk.

He's always citing "evidence" and how it's "proven" that their methods don't work. I'd say the fact Wilko was the last English manager to win the PL, barely any English managers have won major trophies in the last 20 years and the English national team's most successful coach in that time was from Sweden is pretty conclusive evidence that they are simply are not as good as their foreign counter parts. He seems unwilling to listen to this evidence though and it's all some outrageous plot to keep the English coaches down.

Does he honestly expect us to believe that owners only appoint foreign coaches because they are anti-English? If there was an English coach around with any decent pedigree (winning something) he'd be snapped up in no time by a top PL club.

Anyway, it winds me up and I wish he'd stop talking shite.

There are a few on here who think like him too. Not me, I hasten to add.

 

[Mrjardine]

He is dour though; he sets out his team NOT to lose, and that will never cut the mustard with top clubs. The Newcastle job was quite a big job, it was acknowledged as such, and he got quite a bit to spend and he was still travelling to the likes of Derby and Wigan trying to nick a point. It's not that he's direct is the problem; he doesn't set out to win every game.

Moyes, Rodgers, Hodgson, Redknapp and even Sherwood have all been given a go at clubs chasing Champions League spots. Throughout that time, if we look at the big clubs then Man Utd have changed manager twice (once was British), Arsenal haven't changed at all, City have changed twice, Liverpool have changed four times (three times for British managers) and Spurs four times (two were British). As you point out, the exception is Chelsea but they're generally barmy and very obsessed with big-names in.

I think there is some merit in your claims, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you make out. I also don't think there's been *that* many British managers who've proven they have what top clubs want - ability to get results combined with aesthetically pleasing football.

Over the last ten years, the ones I'd put in that camp are Redknapp (got a top job = Spurs are a CL chasing club, no matter how bad a start to the season they'd had), Rodgers (got a top job), Moyes (got a top job) and Howe (still young, will get a top job imo). The only one I can think of who hasn't is Hughes, but he kind of got given a top-job midway through his time at City and struggled, but I'd imagine his time may come again (I reckon one day he'll end up at Chelsea).

Spurs weren't a champions league chasing club before Redknapp went regardless of where he found then mind. They'd never finished top 4 until he done it and it could be argued he laid the foundations for where they are now. Sherwood done ok but was only ever in temp charge so can't really claim that as been given a chance.
Liverpool have given British managers a go and Rodgers did well, hodgson was poor and Dalglish was more to do with his previous reputation than any real desire to go British.
Hughes wasn't doing a bad job at City by any means and the fans were sorry to see him go as hisc reception in last game after they beat us would testify but the owners wanted someone else and surprise surprise they brought in a foreigner.
You do make good points that a few British managers have been given opportunities (moyes and hodgson) and never set world alight but I think it's few and far between.
Look at our appointments of di canio and Poyet. Both met with optimism in my opinion due to not being British. If we'd brought in Micky Mellon who got Shrewsbury promoted from league 2 as Di Canio did Swindon how do you think that would've went down?

 

[cbwhu]

probably got the hump watching a foreign coach take over his old squad and in the first year in this country beat the best top flight points total Allardyce has achieved in his 25 year managerial career

 

[Sima]

You's have played 22 premier league seasons and finished top 10 in 9 of them which is under half. You's had a period where you were a poor mans Man City if like when cash was being splashed but it wasn't sustainable and it's been a case of normal service resumed since.
The city owners are far wealthier than Ashley and probably aren't as concerned with turning a profit. For Ashley it's a business but he's still spent a fair bit so I think the stick he gets is unfair.
Look at the last 50 years of Newcastle and it's hardly a club you'd associate with the big boys of English football is it?

Your original point was that Allardyce was at a club that is 'mid-table at best' in 2007. You can't add the 9 years that have followed to back up your point.

My rebuttal was that we weren't a 'mid-table at best' side when Allardyce took over.

 

[The Fish]

You's have played 22 premier league seasons and finished top 10 in 9 of them which is under half. You's had a period where you were a poor mans Man City if like when cash was being splashed but it wasn't sustainable and it's been a case of normal service resumed since.
The city owners are far wealthier than Ashley and probably aren't as concerned with turning a profit. For Ashley it's a business but he's still spent a fair bit so I think the stick he gets is unfair.
Look at the last 50 years of Newcastle and it's hardly a club you'd associate with the big boys of English football is it?

Has he? Or has he spent money that the club generates (from the ridiculous TV deals)? He's not exactly a Sugar Daddy, is he?

Would Chelsea or Man City be considered "big boys" over the last 50 yrs? Would Everton? Would Spurs? It's basically Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United & various also-rans.