3rd Ashes Test: England V Australia 29th July

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There are a few players around these days who are not, and never will be, legends of the game even though their averages suggest otherwise. It's not just a symptom of increasingly flat pitches, a modern-day career is diluted with games against weaker nations like Bangladesh, WI (last five years) and until recently Zimbabwe. There's also the fact that there is just not the quality of bowling around at this moment in time that there was in the past across the board. Looking back even 15 years, every team seemed to have a decent attack. Walsh/Ambrose, McGrath/Lee/Gillespie, Wasim/Waqar, Donald/Pollock et al. Then you get started on the spinners - Murali, Saqlain, Harbhajan, Warne, Kumble, Vettori etc.

Modern players have had it comparatively easy in that they either did not play against that depth of bowling talent, or faced a lot of those players as they were coming to the end. Cook is one who falls into that category but he's not the only one by any stretch and nor is that something that only applies to England players. That said, I still think Cook is a fine player and at the end of the day, you can only play against what's put in front of you.
 
Sweeper said:
There are a few players around these days who are not, and never will be, legends of the game even though their averages suggest otherwise. It's not just a symptom of increasingly flat pitches, a modern-day career is diluted with games against weaker nations like Bangladesh, WI (last five years) and until recently Zimbabwe. There's also the fact that there is just not the quality of bowling around at this moment in time that there was in the past across the board. Looking back even 15 years, every team seemed to have a decent attack. Walsh/Ambrose, McGrath/Lee/Gillespie, Wasim/Waqar, Donald/Pollock et al. Then you get started on the spinners - Murali, Saqlain, Harbhajan, Warne, Kumble, Vettori etc.

Modern players have had it comparatively easy in that they either did not play against that depth of bowling talent, or faced a lot of those players as they were coming to the end. Cook is one who falls into that category but he's not the only one by any stretch and nor is that something that only applies to England players. That said, I still think Cook is a fine player and at the end of the day, you can only play against what's put in front of you.
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Has some valid points this, but Cook is a legend, by the time he retires his stats will be ridiculous, opening the batting too.

and johnson in Australia in last ashes was as good a bowling performance as you will ever see in any era
 
johnson said:
I'll probably get stick for this, but I understand why they stuck with Trott in that series, international players are hard to find, Lyth doesn't look up to it, so I guess you give every chance to the ones who are, or were.
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With the benefit of hindsight I'd tend to agree. Trott is/was an international batsmen of the highest quality and teams like Englan cannot afford to discard him easily. On the flip side, had Lyth played all 3 tests in the Caribbean he'd be far more established in the side, feel more at home at Test Level and under less pressure.
 
Sweeper said:
There are a few players around these days who are not, and never will be, legends of the game even though their averages suggest otherwise. It's not just a symptom of increasingly flat pitches, a modern-day career is diluted with games against weaker nations like Bangladesh, WI (last five years) and until recently Zimbabwe. There's also the fact that there is just not the quality of bowling around at this moment in time that there was in the past across the board. Looking back even 15 years, every team seemed to have a decent attack. Walsh/Ambrose, McGrath/Lee/Gillespie, Wasim/Waqar, Donald/Pollock et al. Then you get started on the spinners - Murali, Saqlain, Harbhajan, Warne, Kumble, Vettori etc.

Modern players have had it comparatively easy in that they either did not play against that depth of bowling talent, or faced a lot of those players as they were coming to the end. Cook is one who falls into that category but he's not the only one by any stretch and nor is that something that only applies to England players. That said, I still think Cook is a fine player and at the end of the day, you can only play against what's put in front of you.
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Is it worth pointing out that Cook hasn't played a test against Zimbabwe and has scored 401 of his 9000+ test runs so far against Bangladesh?
 
TopCat said:
With the benefit of hindsight I'd tend to agree. Trott is/was an international batsmen of the highest quality and teams like Englan cannot afford to discard him easily. On the flip side, had Lyth played all 3 tests in the Caribbean he'd be far more established in the side, feel more at home at Test Level and under less pressure.
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I know this is the popular view but I am not convinced, think he may of struggled against Taylor.

People bring out jobs for the boys and all that shite, but it was worth seeing if he still had it, because if he did would of been a massive asset

ah well
 
johnson said:
Has some valid points this, but Cook is a legend, by the time he retires his stats will be ridiculous, opening the batting too.

and johnson in Australia in last ashes was as good a bowling performance as you will ever see in any era
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Agree, but legend status is not only about statistics. Mike Atherton is a legend for England with an average of 38 but for 10 years he summed up English courage in the face of hostility.

johnson said:
it was worth seeing if he still had it, because if he did would of been a massive asset

ah well
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Agree but not as an opener. Big mistake by Moores and co that....
 
TopCat said:
Agree, but legend status is not only about statistics. Mike Atherton is a legend for England with an average of 38 but for 10 years he summed up English courage in the face of hostility.
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I agree, and Cook has been instrumental in one of England's most successful periods


I agree with your point totally.

I was more getting annoyed with the shite stuff about Bell only scoring easy runs bla bla bla, nonsense. Anyway.

TopCat said:
Agree, but legend status is not only about statistics. Mike Atherton is a legend for England with an average of 38 but for 10 years he summed up English courage in the face of hostility.


Agree but not as an opener. Big mistake by Moores and co that....
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Yep, 3 or even 4
 
johnson said:
I agree, and Cook has been instrumental in one of England's most successful periods


I agree with your point totally.

I was more getting annoyed with the shite stuff about Bell only scoring easy runs bla bla bla, nonsense. Anyway.



Yep, 3 or even 4
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Bell is an odd one. Bags and bags of talent, rarely turns up when his team need him. Wasn't it only recently where he scored a hundred without someone else in the side already having made one? I think his stats should be up there with Cook's given the talent he has
 
TopCat said:
Bell is an odd one. Bags and bags of talent, rarely turns up when his team need him. Wasn't it only recently where he scored a hundred without someone else in the side already having made one? I think his stats should be up there with Cook's given the talent he has
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sorry mate but thats absolute utter shite and a total myth
 
johnson said:
I agree, and Cook has been instrumental in one of England's most successful periods


I agree with your point totally.

I was more getting annoyed with the shite stuff about Bell only scoring easy runs bla bla bla, nonsense. Anyway.



Yep, 3 or even 4
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Be interested to think how he would have gone at 3 ahead of Ballance.....

johnson said:
sorry mate but thats absolute utter shite and a total myth
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The stats back it up. Makes most of his runs when the team are already 250-3
 
TopCat said:
Yeah, you're right. Only ever scores runs when we are 20-3 and scored all his hundreds when the rest of the team have failed. Come on man, check his record...

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I'm not getting into this shite, its well known that its the biggest myth in English cricket

theres nothing inbetween 250-3 and 20-3 of course :lol:

Its like 2013 Ashes never happend:oops:
 
When even the Aussies were saying pre-match that Bell, whether at 3,4 or 5 is th prize wicket why do some people still persist in the "he's shit" mantra.

He's not. He's one of the few proven players in the side. Will people still be calling for his head if he gets 50 in the next innings? No.

Should he have been promoted to 3 sooner? Yes, absolutely. Is it his fault he wasn't? No.

I would move him out of the slips, though.
 
Aleem Dar said:
When even the Aussies were saying pre-match that Bell, whether at 3,4 or 5 is th prize wicket why do some people still persist in the "he's shit" mantra.

He's not. He's one of the few proven players in the side. Will people still be calling for his head if he gets 50 in the next innings? No.

Should he have been promoted to 3 sooner? Yes, absolutely. Is it his fault he wasn't? No.

I would move him out of the slips, though.
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I'm certainly not calling him shit I just think he should have scored more runs given his talent.
Bell 112 Tests 7427 Runs
Cook 116 Tests 9139 Runs
 
TopCat said:
I'm certainly not calling him shit I just think he should have scored more runs given his talent.
Bell 112 Tests 7427 Runs
Cook 116 Tests 9139 Runs
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Yeah no doubt about that.

Just think people are too harsh on him. This nonsense that he never scores meaningful runs. He has nearly 7500 runs! Been some bloody vital ones in there! Laughable

Agree with your point though.

So frustrated with his dismissal today, he is playing 90mph quicks with absolute ease, timing them to the boundary, why on earth try and slog a spinner. He doesn't need to do that he is that good, just milk him.

Aleem Dar said:
When even the Aussies were saying pre-match that Bell, whether at 3,4 or 5 is th prize wicket why do some people still persist in the "he's shit" mantra.

He's not. He's one of the few proven players in the side. Will people still be calling for his head if he gets 50 in the next innings? No.

Should he have been promoted to 3 sooner? Yes, absolutely. Is it his fault he wasn't? No.

I would move him out of the slips, though.
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excellent post
 
Aleem Dar said:
When even the Aussies were saying pre-match that Bell, whether at 3,4 or 5 is th prize wicket why do some people still persist in the "he's shit" mantra.

He's not. He's one of the few proven players in the side. Will people still be calling for his head if he gets 50 in the next innings? No.

Should he have been promoted to 3 sooner? Yes, absolutely. Is it his fault he wasn't? No.

I would move him out of the slips, though.
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If Michael Clarke is asked a direct question about an opposition player who is - quite possibly - in last chance saloon, what do you expect him to say?

I doubt very much he'll get five, never mind fifty, in the second innings. A half decent score is generally followed by four or five shit ones in his current form.
 
Aleem Dar said:
Should he have been promoted to 3 sooner? Yes, absolutely. Is it his fault he wasn't? No.
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Do you reckon he thrust his hand up prior to the 2nd Test Down Under? If he had would Flower and Cook not jumped at the chance to get him to replace Trott? No, instead he let Root get shunted up and down the order and stayed hiding at 5.

Brilliant player, should've taken more responsibility over the years and scored runs when we needed him
 
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