West Indies V England - T20

mackembhoy said:
Cos I think they still view him as first choice, when everyone is fit and we have a world cup again this year.
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But I think that myth has been put to bet that you need to just pick your best T20 side all year. The Aussies just rocked up and won it

We need to be looking at different alternative as we know Jordan isn’t good enough to win it for us


Also when does Morgan’s form become an issue. Been horrific for a while and his captaincy and reliance on data has been poor

Not too interested in t20 but if I looked at it objectively there are questions to answer
 


The Rat said:
But I think that myth has been put to bet that you need to just pick your best T20 side all year. The Aussies just rocked up and won it

We need to be looking at different alternative as we know Jordan isn’t good enough to win it for us


Also when does Morgan’s form become an issue. Been horrific for a while and his captaincy and reliance on data has been poor

Not too interested in t20 but if I looked at it objectively there are questions to answer
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How can you be critical of Morgan's captaincy yet can't bring yourself to criticise Root's?
 
smoker said:
How can you be critical of Morgan's captaincy yet can't bring yourself to criticise Root's?
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I am critical of Root's, just think its overplayed.

Morgan has a much much better team relevant to the formats too doesn't he, usually.

Not easy to captain when you cant score 300
 
The Rat said:
I am critical of Root's, just think its overplayed.

Morgan has a much much better team relevant to the formats too doesn't he, usually.

Not easy to captain when you cant score 300
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I’d bet everything I have that Vaughan or Hussain could get more out of the Test side than Root has.

It has some of our greatest ever players in it, yet results this year have been among our worst ever. Can’t all be the County Championship’s fault.
 
Salem Street South said:
I’d bet everything I have that Vaughan or Hussain could get more out of the Test side than Root has.

It has some of our greatest ever players in it, yet results this year have been among our worst ever. Can’t all be the County Championship’s fault.
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Nah very little. Not when you can’t bat

Michael Vaughan didn’t captain one game in this era

How would he do if flintoff and Pietersen were rested for entire series for white ball cricket? Like happened to root

How would he do if they then missed an entire test series for an IPL.

17 tests in a global pandemic,

17 away tests in the time Australia have played zero, not one.

Hypothetical situation means feck all as it’s a completely different
 
The Rat said:
Nah very little. Not when you can’t bat

Michael Vaughan didn’t captain one game in this era

How would he do if flintoff and Pietersen were rested for entire series for white ball cricket? Like happened to root

How would he do if they then missed an entire test series for an IPL.

17 tests in a global pandemic,

17 away tests in the time Australia have played zero, not one.

Hypothetical situation means feck all as it’s a completely different
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Who has missed an entire series for white ball cricket or an IPL?

Of course it’s hypothetical but in my opinion they’d have got more out of them motivationally and tactically.

Root is poor in those departments.
 
Salem Street South said:
Who has missed an entire series for white ball cricket or an IPL?

Of course it’s hypothetical but in my opinion they’d have got more out of them motivationally and tactically.

Root is poor in those departments.
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any one in the IPL missed the New Zealand series - so Stokes, Archer, Buttler, Curran, Woakes etc.
A lot of the players missed the Sri Lanka series or India series due to white ball priorities
 
Salem Street South said:
Who has missed an entire series for white ball cricket or an IPL?

Of course it’s hypothetical but in my opinion they’d have got more out of them motivationally and tactically.

Root is poor in those departments.
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A few did for NZ just this year

We didn’t pick a first choice XI once before ashes

Players also flew home after 1 test in India and then 2

Not sure there is much debate those things happened like

Played have been missing whole series for 18 months now

Vaughan is a better captain than root but he’s not that good and he’s never manged in a situation like this

All his captaincy was before the IPL you just can’t compare mate

He captained series when England had 3 or 4 warm up games

He’d crumble
 
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Salem Street South said:
I’d bet everything I have that Vaughan or Hussain could get more out of the Test side than Root has.

It has some of our greatest ever players in it, yet results this year have been among our worst ever. Can’t all be the County Championship’s fault.
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Not sure how you can blame Root for not getting more out of the batting?

Which let’s face it was the main problem, it had none of the batting (root excluded) as greatest ever players you taking about.

In fact the complete opposite ,it could be argued the opening batsmen was the worst ever opening partnership!!
 
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Salem Street South said:
It has some of our greatest ever players in it
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two very good bowlers and a bat don't make a team. stokes had't picked up a bat for how long and wasn't ready for that series at all, and the players surrounding them are some of the worst in recent memory, at the lowest points in their careers, with little to no preparation. team selection was abysmal anarl, which root has to shoulder some blame for admittedly.

root is not a good captain there's no debating that IMO but this is a very poor team
 
Twisted said:
two very good bowlers and a bat don't make a team. stokes had't picked up a bat for how long and wasn't ready for that series at all, and the players surrounding them are some of the worst in recent memory, at the lowest points in their careers, with little to no preparation. team selection was abysmal anarl, which root has to shoulder some blame for admittedly.

root is not a good captain there's no debating that IMO but this is a very poor team
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There is debating that, he isnt a bad captain like, I think when the team is performing well he is pretty good, the idea of captaincy is way exagerated in this country, in terms of tactics. 95% of captaincy is how you leed

He has only lost 1 test series at home, where he had a host of players missing, wasnt long ago we won 6 tests away from home under him, and we see now south africa aren't no mugs.
 
The Rat said:
There is debating that, he isnt a bad captain like, I think when the team is performing well he is pretty good, the idea of captaincy is way exagerated in this country, in terms of tactics. 95% of captaincy is how you leed
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i agree, and based on that last tour he couldn't even spell lead ;)
 
Silly Point said:
The Bexley Rams must be loaded like. Get everywhere. Should buy their club!
This looks out to me...
How hasn't he given it?
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He’s retired. Ex Met.
Subsidises his trips by running the mobile Barmy Army shop, which is generally set up at a pub near the venue where we are playing.
Depending on who is there we put the flags up for him.
 
Jack Torrance said:
any one in the IPL missed the New Zealand series - so Stokes, Archer, Buttler, Curran, Woakes etc.
A lot of the players missed the Sri Lanka series or India series due to white ball priorities
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Stokes played 1 game in the IPL and got injured, Archer was injured and would have missed the series anyway, Moeen got Covid in Sri Lanka.

Loads don't rate the other 3, we had cover in their positions and I don't think you play Woakes and Curran in the same side.

Buttler, Bairstow, aye maybe fair enough, it was obvious though that series was an opportunity to have a look at those on the fringes who were in form & deserved a chance like Foakes (who got injured), Robinson, Overton, Bracey and see if they could stake a claim.

I've no problem with that. Some did, some didn't.

I don't personally think Root has been too hard done by with availability and selection overall, certainly not to the extent that I'm prepared to excuse his or our performance since India entirely because of it.

Yeah of course it could have been better, but then I think he could have done his job as captain better as well...

The Rat said:
A few did for NZ just this year

We didn’t pick a first choice XI once before ashes

Players also flew home after 1 test in India and then 2

Not sure there is much debate those things happened like

Played have been missing whole series for 18 months now

Vaughan is a better captain than root but he’s not that good and he’s never manged in a situation like this

All his captaincy was before the IPL you just can’t compare mate

He captained series when England had 3 or 4 warm up games

He’d crumble
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So just two Tests against NZ really then. Sorry mate but I can't really have the team being weakened as an excuse.

Pope, Lawrence who had done ok in the sub continent in the winter, the first choice openers, Crawley, Root, Wood, Broad and Anderson all played. Most people if not all would have those as first choice.

Aye, we've fucked it and made it harder for Root with rest and rotation, I'll admit that. Initially I never had a problem with it, on the proviso the end goal of winning the Ashes was achieved. But it wasn't and it now looks stupid and, although I know it was done for the right reasons, a total shambles.

Vaughan never captained in IPL era, true enough, nor Covid.

I don't think that's the point, though. Him, Nasser, even Strauss were better captains than Root. He makes basic, fundamental mistakes and doesn't admit them.

He is poor tactically and strategically and I won't change my mind that the others would get more out of this side than Root has, which was the original point.

Voice of fair play said:
Not sure how you can blame Root for not getting more out of the batting?

Which let’s face it was the main problem, it had none of the batting (root excluded) as greatest ever players you taking about.

In fact the complete opposite ,it could be argued the opening batsmen was the worst ever opening partnership!!
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He refuses to bat anywhere but 4...that could be one argument. Stokes is one of our best ever all rounders and bats 5 so I include him in the batting. Take your point otherwise.
Look I'm not trying to slaughter Root, he's got a pretty thankless task, he's led from the front with the bat brilliantly all year, he seems a top bloke, a good person & a good character. He's one of the best batsmen I've ever seen and it's been a joy to watch him this year. None of that means he can't be criticised for being a poor captain. There are loads of examples, we all know what they are, they've been highlighted on here so I'm not going to again. I believe, as bad as we are in certain areas, we've under achieved and his captaincy, along with the coach and management is a major contributing factor for that.
Twisted said:
two very good bowlers and a bat don't make a team. stokes had't picked up a bat for how long and wasn't ready for that series at all, and the players surrounding them are some of the worst in recent memory, at the lowest points in their careers, with little to no preparation. team selection was abysmal anarl, which root has to shoulder some blame for admittedly.

root is not a good captain there's no debating that IMO but this is a very poor team
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Mo is our 3rd highest wicket taking spinner of all time, Bairstow held the record for most runs in a calendar year for a keeper, both were messed around under Root. His lack of faith and poor management of spinners in particular is poor to say the least. Stokes, Root, Broad, Anderson all world class. Wood, Buttler both decent to very good and lots of potential elsewhere. We're a long way from being able to say we're more than the sum of our parts, I'd say.
 
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