VAR.... again

[BoshItLikeBardo]

This frame by frame clip shows they've completely fucked it

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The frames we see aren’t relevant for offsides tbh. The VAR lines that footage up as best he can as a double check and to have an image for broadcast. There’s a pretty chunky 20 milliseconds between each frame in that footage.

Really, it’s the semi-automated tech that does the work, and that uses different cameras which capture data at 100fps, which is double the frame rate of the broadcast cameras. They’re almost certainly out of phase too, so the 3D scene is never going to perfectly match the frame we see.

IIRC there’s a 500Hz sensor in the ball which detects the moment of contact. That’s 500 detections per second, which combined with 100fps cameras, provides the most accurate result possible.

TL;DR the semi-automated tech’s 3D render is the most accurate image to go by.

This is going to sound mental but at what point do they decide the ball is being "played"? It takes more than an instant to pass a ball, so is the rule that if the striker is offside at any moment during the prior pass being made then he is offside?

That might explain the difference in the two images?

Edit: Although Udogie's legs look to be in (almost) the same position, so perhaps that isn't what is going on here

Interesting point. It has to be at the moment of release, Shirley. Otherwise you could catch the ball on your foot, let the striker make a run and flick it owa the top.

 

[Mackemansj1]

This is going to sound mental but at what point do they decide the ball is being "played"? It takes more than an instant to pass a ball, so is the rule that if the striker is offside at any moment during the prior pass being made then he is offside?

That might explain the difference in the two images?

Edit: Although Udogie's legs look to be in (almost) the same position, so perhaps that isn't what is going on here

That’s the thing when you’re dealing with cm and milliseconds. Technology isn’t there to have both in the same frame imho so there’s supposed to be wiggle room yet we’ve seen stuff like this a few times now. The replay we see and in stills looks different to what they then show. I think there was a Liverpool goal earlier in the season that missed out a full player in the released shot to what we saw in tv. Arms in different places etc, that’s what happens when they’re trying to measure so fine a margin with the tech we have. I think it needs looking at again the same as the hair pulling and the mayhem that goes on in a box.

 

[Arcas Left Peg]

Given the difficulty and (relative) uncertainty in deciding "when the ball was played", I think some kind of buffer system, where you take maybe a tenth of a second either side of when the deemed play is.

You can then either give the player onside if they were onside at any point during that period

 

[Clivewalkershair]

I thought Calvert Lewin was onside when I saw the replay before var got involved it looked obvious. This West Ham fan nails it

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Thought the same last night!

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

The frames we see aren’t relevant for offsides tbh. The VAR lines that footage up as best he can as a double check and to have an image for broadcast. There’s a pretty chunky 20 milliseconds between each frame in that footage.

Really, it’s the semi-automated tech that does the work, and that uses different cameras which capture data at 100fps, which is double the frame rate of the broadcast cameras. They’re almost certainly out of phase too, so the 3D scene is never going to perfectly match the frame we see.

IIRC there’s a 500Hz sensor in the ball which detects the moment of contact. That’s 500 detections per second, which combined with 100fps cameras, provides the most accurate result possible.

TL;DR the semi-automated tech’s 3D render is the most accurate image to go by.

I read it That 500hz is in the World Cup ball, or any Adidas ball competition as they own the tech inside the ball. You can tell when it is as they show the 3D graphic straight across, unlike the Premier League that shows it at an angle. The Premier League doesn't have this tech but it's still a lot more accurate than the manual stuff. As you say they also use the 100FPS cameras to catch the action. VAR also have access to multiple angles that are synced up so they can use another frame to see the contact but show the usual angle of across the pitch on TV if need be.

What some forget is that viewing angles can be misleading as I've just looked at the live feed angle that shows the ball being played. Here's a gif of 2 different angles that show 5 frames, the top is the live feed we saw and the bottom is a replay of it. I used the Spurs player's foot on the white line as the sync frame and went back 5 frames so all the movements sync up.

In the top of gif, in the 2nd frame I can see the start of the blur of the ball which shows the contact. You can then see the frame below to compare the replay view positions. By the 3rd frame the ball have been well played as it's left his foot in the top but in the bottom DCL is now onside. As @BoshItLikeBardo says, we don't see what the semi-automated tech sees as these TV frames are at best probably 50FPS so these 5 frames would be 10 frames instead for VAR.

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This is the 2nd frame when the ball is touched in the live feed angle, with the replay angle below.

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Long story short(ish), the linesman gave offside anyway so it's the same decision even if VAR didn't exist. Given the advantage of the 5cm and the frames VAR have access to along with the semi-automated stuff then I can see how part of DCL's knee and a bit more of his foot would be offside.

I get they're trying to be precise and in close decisions like this, some will be onside and some will be offside. I just wish they'd make the advantage bigger to something like 15cm so it stops a lot of shite like this and remove most of the doubt and more importantly allows more goals.

 

[woodlebert]

Interesting point. It has to be at the moment of release, Shirley. Otherwise you could catch the ball on your foot, let the striker make a run and flick it owa the top.

Turns out it’s moment of first contact

That’s the thing when you’re dealing with cm and milliseconds. Technology isn’t there to have both in the same frame imho so there’s supposed to be wiggle room yet we’ve seen stuff like this a few times now. The replay we see and in stills looks different to what they then show. I think there was a Liverpool goal earlier in the season that missed out a full player in the released shot to what we saw in tv. Arms in different places etc, that’s what happens when they’re trying to measure so fine a margin with the tech we have. I think it needs looking at again the same as the hair pulling and the mayhem that goes on in a box.

Having looked into it, it’s moment of first contact

 

[jcrossan]

Miiliseconds involved as to when the ball was played and millimetres involved as to where someones toe was.

Total farce. We used to debate things like 'did he get the ball first' and now we're debating miniscule moments that supporters have no clue about from watching the actual game in progress.

How is that entertainment? Which in the end is what sport is about. Do we replay a concert to discover the lead guitarist played a note out of tune so we can get our money back?

 

[parsonjohn1985]

If i could change one thing about VAR it would be a decision timer. When it gets to the point where you are drawing lines or watching replays for 2 minutes plus, then its clearly not an obvious error by the ref/lino.

60 seconds max or you go with the on field decision.

The on field decision was offside tbf.

 

[Lucky1985]

Miiliseconds involved as to when the ball was played and millimetres involved as to where someones toe was.

Total farce. We used to debate things like 'did he get the ball first' and now we're debating miniscule moments that supporters have no clue about from watching the actual game in progress.

How is that entertainment? Which in the end is what sport is about. Do we replay a concert to discover the lead guitarist played a note out of tune so we can get our money back?

What on earth are you on about?!

In the olden days people still would be debating whether this was offside or not, it’s just that now they are able to do so with more precision.

@ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ’s post above made it perfectly clear that they reached the right decision. The one thing this does highlight to me is that if they want to persist with VAR and semi-automated offside decisions, then they need to work on transparency and provide the footage they are using to the broadcasters so there isn’t any doubt about when the ball was played and where the player was.

 

[Quinnymelad]

Has Wengers trial taken place yet?

 

[Eggman]

This is going to sound mental but at what point do they decide the ball is being "played"? It takes more than an instant to pass a ball, so is the rule that if the striker is offside at any moment during the prior pass being made then he is offside?

That might explain the difference in the two images?

Edit: Although Udogie's legs look to be in (almost) the same position, so perhaps that isn't what is going on here

Plus each ‘frame’ is a split second in which everything changes. I doubt that they’ll build in any tolerance for these possible movements

 

[hardlife]

Var ce is ruining the game...too much control, now with ridiculous rules.

 

[FatDrummer]

The VAR system has so many flaws, in reality it all comes down to which person(s) are watching the screen and they decide at what point of contact which decides if its is or isn't, its a joke...

Same could be said for a Lino's reaction time pre VAR. such decisions have been made since the offside rule came in.

 

[SAFCDownUnder]

Calvert-Lewin's right hand is always ahead of the Spurs player, especially in the last frame when Udogie's foot seems to be ahead of C-L's.

 

[Missplaced Childhood]

Why do we only ever get a cartoon like image of the incident? There is no reason at all why they cant use the live footage to show any incidents - just open to further corruption IMO

Worst one for this was the mags winning goal against Man city earlier this season, the cartoon graphic they put up after around 5 minutes bore little resemblance to the initial photo

 

[woodlebert]

Plus each ‘frame’ is a split second in which everything changes. I doubt that they’ll build in any tolerance for these possible movements

I looked into it, which I should have done before posting

They take the initial contact as the moment of off/onside. Not the release or any other moment between

 

[billybobmackem2312]

The mags got a really dodgy one at home to city this season, Bruno was miles offside yet it was given.

It’s not corruption, it’s pure incompetency. They’re not fit for purpose and all need f***ing off.
Howard Webb has somehow made the game worse with his lack of leadership.

 

[Lucky1985]

Calvert-Lewin's right hand is always ahead of the Spurs player, especially in the last frame when Udogie's foot seems to be ahead of C-L's.

Can’t score with your hand though.

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Plus each ‘frame’ is a split second in which everything changes. I doubt that they’ll build in any tolerance for these possible movements

There is a tolerance for offside and it's been in since 2021/22 season.

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You could see it in the old manual method and you can see it in the 3D images if you know where to look. It's all broken down in this post and it's obvious that the majority of fans still don't know it exists.

VARguments

Short memory I’ve not. The sort of complaints managers had a decade ago were the same as today: the penalty we should have got for a clear push in the box but a reluctance by a referee to give it for fear of influencing the game. Managers were never complaining vigorously about offsides where...

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What they need to do is make the 5cm tolerance bigger than what it is and remove most of the doubt. No need for the stupid daylight rule that will never work anyway. So what if an attacker looks a toenail offside yet it's given as onside. At least they're won't be ones where it still looks close as most of the 'doubt' is given to the attacker.

 

[Ch1982]

Whole discussion is a bit silly imo.

Is this sport or science?

VAR should only ever have been used for line decisions imo until the technology was developed enough to make the VAR offside calls clearer and quicker. We should absolutely not be reffing the game again in retrospect.