The Penny hasn't dropped.... for either of our clubs

[daveyblue45]

While just trawling through some footy stats on the net (its sundee arvo and not much happening here at the minute) I saw the amount of Managers Everton and Sunderland have managed to plough their way through in the aftermath of Harry Catterick at our joint, and Alan Brown at SAFC. Those blokes, (Catterick and Brown) seemed to be at the clubs forever and (in my humble opinion) typified continuity and stability at our respective clubs. Alan Brown spent (over a couple of stints as boss) 11 years in charge. Catterick had 12 years in the Goodison hot seat. It would seem that both men, were overtaken in tactics etc. and the game appeared to pass them by. But since that time our clubs have employed managers via a revolving door.... 31 managers at Sunderland..... 19 at Everton!!! I don't know about any of you folk, but I find it depressing to see the pattern of "appoint-sack-appoint-sack...set on rinse and repeat" I wonder just when the penny will drop for these balloon heads in charge??!!

 

[Dick Fitzwell]

The problem is everyone wants success straight away and mangers aren't given the time to build something, nowadays you would never see someone like Fergie given 5 years to get the whole set up of the club right before the success came. Mind you some appointments like Beale are just not right from the start and I still can't believe the bloke has managed 3 professional clubs, but appointments like that are made by people who seem to not have a clue.

 

[daveyblue45]

The problem is everyone wants success straight away and mangers aren't given the time to build something, nowadays you would never see someone like Fergie given 5 years to get the whole set up of the club right before the success came. Mind you some appointments like Beale are just not right from the start and I still can't believe the bloke has managed 3 professional clubs, but appointments like that are made by people who seem to not have a clue.

That's an excellent point you make my friend! I sometimes forget that we now live in an era of "instant gratification", where results are expected to improve within days of an appointment. Good point regarding Fergie..... It's generally felt that United were on the brink of dismissing him at one stage... how history would have changed should United not won the FA Cup in 1990! Yes, like many others, I was surprised that the club appointed Beale.... mind, I was amazed too that they fired Mowbray in the first place. I always felt that Everton were hasty in dismissing Colin Harvey, and bringing back Kendall... who by then was sadly becoming a victim of alcoholism, was a move based in panic! Mike Walker's appointment was another balls up! Nice to chat with you about it mate!
regards to you and yours

Dave

 

[Dick Fitzwell]

That's an excellent point you make my friend! I sometimes forget that we now live in an era of "instant gratification", where results are expected to improve within days of an appointment. Good point regarding Fergie..... It's generally felt that United were on the brink of dismissing him at one stage... how history would have changed should United not won the FA Cup in 1990! Yes, like many others, I was surprised that the club appointed Beale.... mind, I was amazed too that they fired Mowbray in the first place. I always felt that Everton were hasty in dismissing Colin Harvey, and bringing back Kendall... who by then was sadly becoming a victim of alcoholism, was a move based in panic! Mike Walker's appointment was another balls up! Nice to chat with you about it mate!
regards to you and yours

Dave

Cheers Dave

I think Mark Robins saved Fergie by scoring to keep them in the cup, then as you say how much different would football be now without the way that Man U team he put together went on to dominate football in the 90's & 00's.
I still see Walker's appointment as a strange one, yes he done well at Norwich and then went to a bigger club and hasn't been heard of since. Harvey was a disciple of Howard's first spell where the success was great for you blues, very similar to Liverpool when they had the boot room and then stayed faithful to it until Roy Evans didn't move with the times and they lost their way. Houlier came in and managed to start to turn their fortunes around then he was sacked and the waiter came in and reaped the benefits of what he had put in place then when it was his signings they fell apart quickly.
As for us and Mowbray I certainly think things went on behind the scenes I've not been privvy to for his sacking and the mess we are seeing unravel before our eyes now is showing that this may be true.

You have a good day mate.

 

[hertsmackem]

While just trawling through some footy stats on the net (its sundee arvo and not much happening here at the minute) I saw the amount of Managers Everton and Sunderland have managed to plough their way through in the aftermath of Harry Catterick at our joint, and Alan Brown at SAFC. Those blokes, (Catterick and Brown) seemed to be at the clubs forever and (in my humble opinion) typified continuity and stability at our respective clubs. Alan Brown spent (over a couple of stints as boss) 11 years in charge. Catterick had 12 years in the Goodison hot seat. It would seem that both men, were overtaken in tactics etc. and the game appeared to pass them by. But since that time our clubs have employed managers via a revolving door.... 31 managers at Sunderland..... 19 at Everton!!! I don't know about any of you folk, but I find it depressing to see the pattern of "appoint-sack-appoint-sack...set on rinse and repeat" I wonder just when the penny will drop for these balloon heads in charge??!!

problem is that we keep appointing the wrong ones. If we had managed to keep hold of Big Sam then maybe we could have progressed a bit further. We like to employ cheap and shit and in the event of a miracle the board can say 'told you so'

 

[citybythesea]

While just trawling through some footy stats on the net (its sundee arvo and not much happening here at the minute) I saw the amount of Managers Everton and Sunderland have managed to plough their way through in the aftermath of Harry Catterick at our joint, and Alan Brown at SAFC. Those blokes, (Catterick and Brown) seemed to be at the clubs forever and (in my humble opinion) typified continuity and stability at our respective clubs. Alan Brown spent (over a couple of stints as boss) 11 years in charge. Catterick had 12 years in the Goodison hot seat. It would seem that both men, were overtaken in tactics etc. and the game appeared to pass them by. But since that time our clubs have employed managers via a revolving door.... 31 managers at Sunderland..... 19 at Everton!!! I don't know about any of you folk, but I find it depressing to see the pattern of "appoint-sack-appoint-sack...set on rinse and repeat" I wonder just when the penny will drop for these balloon heads in charge??!!

It’s the modern way unfortunately. Success needs to be judged over a season not over 10 games. What people don’t appreciate is the disruptive nature of sack-hire-sack strategy . It costs a lot of money to follow this method. The assumption is that it’s a free necessity. Most often managers bring in their own back room staff and they’re all on contracts. Terminating their employment usually means paying out their contracts too.
I can’t speak for Everton, but the mutable way Sunderland has been ran has contributed to the ongoing instability.

 

[daveyblue45]

Cheers Dave

I think Mark Robins saved Fergie by scoring to keep them in the cup, then as you say how much different would football be now without the way that Man U team he put together went on to dominate football in the 90's & 00's.
I still see Walker's appointment as a strange one, yes he done well at Norwich and then went to a bigger club and hasn't been heard of since. Harvey was a disciple of Howard's first spell where the success was great for you blues, very similar to Liverpool when they had the boot room and then stayed faithful to it until Roy Evans didn't move with the times and they lost their way. Houlier came in and managed to start to turn their fortunes around then he was sacked and the waiter came in and reaped the benefits of what he had put in place then when it was his signings they fell apart quickly.
As for us and Mowbray I certainly think things went on behind the scenes I've not been privvy to for his sacking and the mess we are seeing unravel before our eyes now is showing that this may be true.

You have a good day mate.

Interesting point there re Mark Robins' goal saving Fergie. It was a similar story at EFC in 1984, when "Inchy" latched on to a poor backpass at Oxford United and scored an equaliser in our League cup tie, AND saved Kendall's career at EFC... although the Chairman Sir Philip Carter always maintained that Kendall was safe!

 

[Dick Fitzwell]

Interesting point there re Mark Robins' goal saving Fergie. It was a similar story at EFC in 1984, when "Inchy" latched on to a poor backpass at Oxford United and scored an equaliser in our League cup tie, AND saved Kendall's career at EFC... although the Chairman Sir Philip Carter always maintained that Kendall was safe!

To have add a similar note regarding SAFC, I really do think that when we had Big Sam that we were on the brink of seeing us really take the step up from relegation strugglers year on year to a midtable nothing type team which would have been a good step to take. But Roy and Nev decided that they wanted Harry Kane taking corners in the Euros and the rest is history.
I do think the wholesale changes that happen when a manager is sacked and take teams back years and in our case eventually divisions and as much as I dislike Moyes it started long before he took us down. When a manager is sacked it must cost a fortune to pay him off then appoint the next one and for him to set things up the way he wants and buy or sell players and bring in his coaching team then ultimately they will get paid off when he loses a few games.

 

[daveyblue45]

Cheers Dave

I think Mark Robins saved Fergie by scoring to keep them in the cup, then as you say how much different would football be now without the way that Man U team he put together went on to dominate football in the 90's & 00's.
I still see Walker's appointment as a strange one, yes he done well at Norwich and then went to a bigger club and hasn't been heard of since. Harvey was a disciple of Howard's first spell where the success was great for you blues, very similar to Liverpool when they had the boot room and then stayed faithful to it until Roy Evans didn't move with the times and they lost their way. Houlier came in and managed to start to turn their fortunes around then he was sacked and the waiter came in and reaped the benefits of what he had put in place then when it was his signings they fell apart quickly.
As for us and Mowbray I certainly think things went on behind the scenes I've not been privvy to for his sacking and the mess we are seeing unravel before our eyes now is showing that this may be true.

You have a good day mate.

Aye, Rafa was a very lucky guy coming in to Liverpool when he did. Roy Evans was (sadly for him) living evidence that absolute continuity doesnt always guarantee success. Dalglish inherited a good side but was (In my biased opinion) quite fortunate in his first season as manager winning the double by the slimmest of margins... Neville Southall getting injured for Wales helped his cause no end!

 

[Mr Redknapp]

The problem is everyone wants success straight away and mangers aren't given the time to build something, nowadays you would never see someone like Fergie given 5 years to get the whole set up of the club right before the success came. Mind you some appointments like Beale are just not right from the start and I still can't believe the bloke has managed 3 professional clubs, but appointments like that are made by people who seem to not have a clue.

Nah one and half years is long enough man

 

[barts45]

Fall guys for the usual real issue

The owner. Unfortunately for sunderland we’ve been sold a dud and have two wankers who own us

 

[wednesday1957]

feel your pain, we have a manager who can weave crap to gold and a Chairman who can turn iy straight back into crap again...Harry Catterick still has one of the best if not the best win ratio of any manager i've seen at Hillsborough

 

[daveyblue45]

To have add a similar note regarding SAFC, I really do think that when we had Big Sam that we were on the brink of seeing us really take the step up from relegation strugglers year on year to a midtable nothing type team which would have been a good step to take. But Roy and Nev decided that they wanted Harry Kane taking corners in the Euros and the rest is history.
I do think the wholesale changes that happen when a manager is sacked and take teams back years and in our case eventually divisions and as much as I dislike Moyes it started long before he took us down. When a manager is sacked it must cost a fortune to pay him off then appoint the next one and for him to set things up the way he wants and buy or sell players and bring in his coaching team then ultimately they will get paid off when he loses a few games.

Great point re: Moyes. When Everton dismissed Walter Smith (a fine and honourable man who I believe was royally shafted by the club ownership) and appointed Moyes, I was less than enthused, but prepared to give the new guy a fair crack of the whip. Moyes himself had no doubts about what made the club (ahem) "tick"(?!?!)

"When I took over, I had a feeling that finishing just outside of relegation, avoiding relegation and staying up was going to be acceptable. And I could smell it. I smelt it around the club, and I felt that was one of the reasons why I had to try and make a big change"

David Moyes

From: "Faith of our Families: Everton FC: an oral history 1878-2018

So Moyes probably encountered an ownership with a philosophy similar to the one at my club?

Fall guys for the usual real issue

The owner. Unfortunately for sunderland we’ve been sold a dud and have two wankers who own us

I guess at the core of any successful venture is LEADERSHIP a commodity sadly lacking at our clubs, marra.

 

[BiG]

That's an excellent point you make my friend! I sometimes forget that we now live in an era of "instant gratification", where results are expected to improve within days of an appointment. Good point regarding Fergie..... It's generally felt that United were on the brink of dismissing him at one stage... how history would have changed should United not won the FA Cup in 1990! Yes, like many others, I was surprised that the club appointed Beale.... mind, I was amazed too that they fired Mowbray in the first place. I always felt that Everton were hasty in dismissing Colin Harvey, and bringing back Kendall... who by then was sadly becoming a victim of alcoholism, was a move based in panic! Mike Walker's appointment was another balls up! Nice to chat with you about it mate!
regards to you and yours

Dave

Sunderland supporters and ‘instant gratification’ is a weird concept. Actually take out the word ‘instant’ and it’s still a bit of a stretch.

 

[daveyblue45]

Sunderland supporters and ‘instant gratification’ is a weird concept. Actually take out the word ‘instant’ and it’s still a bit of a stretch.

Aye, probably a wee bit of a L-O-N-G bow there, I was trying to make the point that it's the way of the world now, but see what you mean like.

feel your pain, we have a manager who can weave crap to gold and a Chairman who can turn iy straight back into crap again...Harry Catterick still has one of the best if not the best win ratio of any manager i've seen at Hillsborough

Yes, Harry Catterick was indeed a fine manager. In my humble opinion, he was given a lousy run by the media and is something of a "forgotten manager" of the 1960's era...... Shankly, Busby, Nicholson and that prick Revie were the "media darlings" For his part, Catterick kept the media very much at arms length and didn't hobnob with them or play to the gallery as "Shanks" (God Bless Him) did. However, a glance at his record over 12 years says it all as far as I'm concerned. It's an interesting coincidence that Harry was a Darlington boy, a product of the North East, as was our most successful manager Howard Kendall (Hetton Le Hole I believe)

 

[Oswald Ballbag]

Interesting to look at the 60’s era and just how many long serving managers there were. Brown here, Joe Mercer at City, Catterick, Busby, Shankly, Nicholson, Revie, Joe Harvey up the road, Drake & Docherty at Chelsea, Bertie Mee at Arsenal, and many others. This was how football was back then and the common theme is that they were all big characters, respected within the game, that almost transcended their respective clubs.

At the top levels it’s all just a huge global gravy train now for both players and managers.

 

[AKickUpTheBerntHaas]

The answer isn’t simply giving someone a job and leaving them to it. There’s more to it than that and it typically emanates from the top down. Poor ownership, of which it seems you can certainly add KLD to, and poor decision making from the top (speaking to someone else last summer whilst Mowbray had just lead us to the playoffs, sacking Mowbray, appointing Beale despite him being honking and unpopular everywhere he’d been, leaving us with an interim for the remainder of the season when we still had a reasonable chance of making the playoffs) often leads to poor appointments and the hire and fire nature we’re in. That and the urgency of everything from fans and owners.

 

[WHD]

The problem is everyone wants success straight away and mangers aren't given the time to build something, nowadays you would never see someone like Fergie given 5 years to get the whole set up of the club right before the success came. Mind you some appointments like Beale are just not right from the start and I still can't believe the bloke has managed 3 professional clubs, but appointments like that are made by people who seem to not have a clue.

Aye, just give any shite manager a few seasons and they'll turn into the next Alex Ferguson.

Ferguson was a one off, and it's a bit of a myth that he started off shite at Man U. They finished runners up in his first full season, plus he'd had success at Aberdeen previously.

 

[Lo Ursem]

Interesting to look at the 60’s era and just how many long serving managers there were. Brown here, Joe Mercer at City, Catterick, Busby, Shankly, Nicholson, Revie, Joe Harvey up the road, Drake & Docherty at Chelsea, Bertie Mee at Arsenal, and many others. This was how football was back then and the common theme is that they were all big characters, respected within the game, that almost transcended their respective clubs.

At the top levels it’s all just a huge global gravy train now for both players and managers.

Also in the 60's I reckon managers were much better paid than the players especially at Manchester United where, even after the abolition of the maximum wage, Busby kept wages down whilst doing quite well financially himself.

 

[Dick Fitzwell]

Aye, just give any shite manager a few seasons and they'll turn into the next Alex Ferguson.

Ferguson was a one off, and it's a bit of a myth that he started off shite at Man U. They finished runners up in his first full season, plus he'd had success at Aberdeen previously.

Not every manager will be crap, Reid was probably our last long term manager and look how long ago that was and since then have we ever really had a good plan in place? We need stability and that starts from the top with a clear plan in place where everyone knows what they are responsible for. This model we are trying now will never work if there isn't a mix of experience in there too.

As for Fergie, his first season at Man U was not decent they finished 11th then his second season they were 2nd then 11th, 13th then 6th before they finished runners up again then the team took shape and the rest is history.