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Sunderland railway station.

zwartekat said:
Not sure why there's always a few on here who don't seem to understand that most of us know Newcastle is the major place in the NE but we can still want a decent level of service and amenities for our own city rather than just let it degenerate further.
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There's nothing wrong with optimism but there's beyond realistic expectations also. It's not so easy when you're sandwiched in between 1 destination half an hour away which is a major transfer hub and another about hour and a half away in Leeds which is another major transfer hub but the de-facto Tory HQ when they're not based down south.

I think you just have to accept the situation and be grateful for the lines we have like the metrocentre line and the one down to King's Cross
 
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coyneeee said:
There's nothing wrong with optimism but there's beyond realistic expectations also. It's not so easy when you're sandwiched in between 1 destination half an hour away which is a major transfer hub and another about hour and a half away in Leeds which is another major transfer hub but the de-facto Tory HQ when they're not based down south.

I think you just have to accept the situation and be grateful for the lines we have like the metrocentre line and the one down to King's Cross
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York is as big a hub as Leeds I'd say.

Thing is as I said earlier, the infrastructure is there to allow Sunderland to be connected to the NW. It used to be when Transpennine trains to Newcastle continued onto Sunderland.

Redcar and Saltburn are tacked onto TPE services from Manchester. There is no reason why Sunderland couldn't be on the Transpennine network, except (I suspect) politics
 
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Redandwhitedust said:
York is as big a hub as Leeds I'd say.

Thing is as I said earlier, the infrastructure is there to allow Sunderland to be connected to the NW. It used to be when Transpennine trains to Newcastle continued onto Sunderland.

Redcar and Saltburn are tacked onto TPE services from Manchester. There is no reason why Sunderland couldn't be on the network, except (I suspect) politics
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The Metro trains are the problem, there's congestion at Sunderland and no more space to fit extra trains in.

There's political problems aswell aswell to be fair SENRUG are after the TPE trains. There's serious problems in Northumberland where trains are unusable because of the stopping patterns where the LNER trains are Newcastle - Morpeth - Berwick - Edinburgh or Newcastle - Alnmouth - Edinburgh etc but if you want to travel from say Morpeth to Alnmouth it's virtually impossible.

See:
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Redandwhitedust said:
With a name like that (which I've just worked out) I figured you would be a rail expert ;)

Truth is, you are right. Routes create their own demand to an extent. How many people from the Northeast would ever have visited Gdansk if there hadn't been a regular direct flight from Newcastle? No one was calling for a Newcastle to Zadar flight. But Ryanair started it and I bet they aren't running flights empty.

There's probably not much demand for Sunderland-Leeds now. But if there was an hourly train, demand would grow. Not to mention similar growth from other stations along the line
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There probably is a demand but to be fair you only need to get a GC train to York and change there. The problem is that the ECML is saturated with trains south of Northallerton.
 
Zimba said:
The Metro trains are the problem, there's congestion at Sunderland and no more space to fit extra trains in.
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Not a problem at all if we had a rail network under one banner and some joined up thinking.

As I said earlier. Newcastle gets 2 trains an hour from Manchester. Departures from Victoria on the hour and the quarter past. Send one to Newcastle via Hartlepool/Sunderland (returning via Durham, CLS, Darlington) and the other going the other way and you've solved the problem. Sunderland and Hartlepool get a quick Manchester train (with no changes) ever other hour and a slower direct connection on the alternate hour

But youd lose a metro Metro/Northern train an hour in each direction. But gain a faster service. No one would notice it. But you could gain direct links to York, Leeds, Manchester then Manchester Airport/Liverpool. Its a no brainer. The only loser really is Heworth

But Metro is one franchise, which competes with Northern which won't be happy to lose a route...

Maybe the answer is one railway and a degree of commonsense
PinzaC55 said:
There probably is a demand but to be fair you only need to get a GC train to York and change there. The problem is that the ECML is saturated with trains south of Northallerton.
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Two trains an hour run Manchester-Newcastle.

One branching off at Northallerton to Newcastle via Eaglescliffe/Hartlepool/Sunderland (returning via Durham and vice versa) doesn't create congestion. It actually frees up track on the busier line to Darlo/Durham every other hour.

Also adds an extra "fast" service from Teeside to Newcastle without going through Darlo.

I'm no expert, but I'm struggling to see why this wouldn't work
 
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Redandwhitedust said:
Not a problem at all if we had a rail network under one banner and some joined up thinking.

As I said earlier. Newcastle gets 2 trains an hour from Manchester. Departures from Victoria on the hour and the quarter past. Send one to Newcastle via Hartlepool/Sunderland (returning via Durham, CLS, Darlington) and the other going the other way and you've solved the problem. Sunderland and Hartlepool get a quick Manchester train (with no changes) ever other hour and a slower direct connection on the alternate hour

But youd lose a metro Metro/Northern train an hour in each direction. But gain a faster service. No one would notice it. But you could gain direct links to York, Leeds, Manchester then Manchester Airport/Liverpool. Its a no brainer. The only loser really is Heworth

But Metro is one franchise, which competes with Northern which won't be happy to lose a route...

Maybe the answer is one railway and a degree of commonsense


Two trains an hour run Manchester-Newcastle.

One branching off at Northallerton to Newcastle via Eaglescliffe/Hartlepool/Sunderland (returning via Durham and vice versa) doesn't create congestion. It actually frees up track on the busier line to Darlo/Durham every other hour.

Also adds an extra "fast" service from Teeside to Newcastle without going through Darlo.

I'm no expert, but I'm struggling to see why this wouldn't work
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There's only the one TPE service up to Newcastle now the Man Airport service got culled awhile back because of the pathing issues on the ECML. There's only 6 hourly paths available and LNER got an extra path instead.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to send another service up the coast though tbf.

Personally, and I know this would be political suicide, I'd drop the Metro down to 3 TPH and then have 3 TPH with Northern going down the Durham Coast or alternatively if it still exists not sure if it's gone altogether now with COVID reductions send that Manchester Airport service through and have 2 Northern services to Nunthorpe and then the TPE service acting as a 20 minute service. Seaham, Hartlepool, Billingham and Peterlee (Horden) are big towns I don't believe they couldn't sustain a more frequent service.

There's no need for 6 trains an hour on the Metro tbh.
 
Zimba said:
There's only the one TPE service up to Newcastle now the Man Airport service got culled awhile back because of the pathing issues on the ECML. There's only 6 hourly paths available and LNER got an extra path instead.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to send another service up the coast though tbf.

Personally, and I know this would be political suicide, I'd drop the Metro down to 3 TPH and then have 3 TPH with Northern going down the Durham Coast or alternatively if it still exists not sure if it's gone altogether now with COVID reductions send that Manchester Airport service through and have 2 Northern services to Nunthorpe and then the TPE service acting as a 20 minute service. Seaham, Hartlepool, Billingham and Peterlee (Horden) are big towns I don't believe they couldn't sustain a more frequent service.

There's no need for 6 trains an hour on the Metro tbh.
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That's exactly it, the Metro consumes any paths any other operator might have between Sunderland and Pelaw; there's barely room for freight, Northern and GC empty coaching stock as it is. Not only are they frequent and slow, they're also highly regular at 12 minute frequency, which eliminates the possibility for faster express runs in between.

The choice between varied regional services, and a metro service to Newcastle, was made long ago and without cutting Metro substantially you can't go back from that. They reduced the Northern service to hourly when the Metro started.

The coast line could handle plenty more traffic and a reversal at Middlesbrough wouldn't be an issue; plenty of regional services do this.

As you say, lack of paths prevent any useful new through services because of no capacity between Pelaw to Sunderland and Northallerton to York, but there might be extensions possible like LNER do now and Transpennine once did albeit via Newcastle.

I could see there being space and a business case if Transpennine extended to Sunderland instead of/alternated with Redcar from the south, and terminated at Sunderland every two hours (or Newcastle by running in the path of a Northern service) but this would need more stock and staff. Sunderland would generate much more traffic than their Saltburn and Redcar extensions, but at a cost. TPE have plenty of stock right now but staffing and training is a mess and their timetables have been slashed back already, and they're still cancelling and curtailing a lot of services.

So you're left with scraps of possible service because of Metro and I don't think you could ever reduce Metro service now. I'm the biggest regional rail fab out there and I wouldn't advocate that! But a few smart service extensions would go a long way to adding a lot of value to our rail links.
 
Beau Peep said:
That's exactly it, the Metro consumes any paths any other operator might have between Sunderland and Pelaw; there's barely room for freight, Northern and GC empty coaching stock as it is. Not only are they frequent and slow, they're also highly regular at 12 minute frequency, which eliminates the possibility for faster express runs in between.

The choice between varied regional services, and a metro service to Newcastle, was made long ago and without cutting Metro substantially you can't go back from that. They reduced the Northern service to hourly when the Metro started.

The coast line could handle plenty more traffic and a reversal at Middlesbrough wouldn't be an issue; plenty of regional services do this.

As you say, lack of paths prevent any useful new through services because of no capacity between Pelaw to Sunderland and Northallerton to York, but there might be extensions possible like LNER do now and Transpennine once did albeit via Newcastle.

I could see there being space and a business case if Transpennine extended to Sunderland instead of/alternated with Redcar from the south, and terminated at Sunderland every two hours (or Newcastle by running in the path of a Northern service) but this would need more stock and staff. Sunderland would generate much more traffic than their Saltburn and Redcar extensions, but at a cost. TPE have plenty of stock right now but staffing and training is a mess and their timetables have been slashed back already, and they're still cancelling and curtailing a lot of services.

So you're left with scraps of possible service because of Metro and I don't think you could ever reduce Metro service now. I'm the biggest regional rail fab out there and I wouldn't advocate that! But a few smart service extensions would go a long way to adding a lot of value to our rail links.
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Honestly can't disagree with any of that. Another thing that you could potentially do is use, if the LNER services ever actually get up to Middlesbrough, is splitting the trains somewhere. The 10 coach (2x 5 coaches) ones are designed to do exactly that but they never implemented it but that will erode GC so not sure if that would be a good thing.

Speaking of the ticket offices closing I find it quite ironic that the local councillors and Driscol are moaning about them closing. Now I'll just go and buy my Network One ticket from the Nexus shop at Park Lane. Oh wait...
 
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Redandwhitedust said:
Not a problem at all if we had a rail network under one banner and some joined up thinking.

As I said earlier. Newcastle gets 2 trains an hour from Manchester. Departures from Victoria on the hour and the quarter past. Send one to Newcastle via Hartlepool/Sunderland (returning via Durham, CLS, Darlington) and the other going the other way and you've solved the problem. Sunderland and Hartlepool get a quick Manchester train (with no changes) ever other hour and a slower direct connection on the alternate hour

But youd lose a metro Metro/Northern train an hour in each direction. But gain a faster service. No one would notice it. But you could gain direct links to York, Leeds, Manchester then Manchester Airport/Liverpool. Its a no brainer. The only loser really is Heworth

But Metro is one franchise, which competes with Northern which won't be happy to lose a route...

Maybe the answer is one railway and a degree of commonsense


Two trains an hour run Manchester-Newcastle.

One branching off at Northallerton to Newcastle via Eaglescliffe/Hartlepool/Sunderland (returning via Durham and vice versa) doesn't create congestion. It actually frees up track on the busier line to Darlo/Durham every other hour.

Also adds an extra "fast" service from Teeside to Newcastle without going through Darlo.

I'm no expert, but I'm struggling to see why this wouldn't work
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OK I thought you meant extra TPE trains from Sunderland instead of diverting existing ones. However that means when a train leaves or enters Northallerton station the points have to be set for the branch which means ECML southbound trains have to wait for the junction to be clear. They don't like this which is why many flat junctions are being replaced by flyovers. But it also means that the existing franchise has to be renegotiated and then TPE drivers and guards have to be instructed so they "learn the route" which costs a lot of money.
It would be great if we had British Rail again with all trains under "one banner" but as I said earlier we have to deal with reality, not what we would like. The Metro was never part of BR so its negative effect on Sunderland would remain.
 
PinzaC55 said:
OK I thought you meant extra TPE trains from Sunderland instead of diverting existing ones. However that means when a train leaves or enters Northallerton station the points have to be set for the branch which means ECML southbound trains have to wait for the junction to be clear. They don't like this which is why many flat junctions are being replaced by flyovers. But it also means that the existing franchise has to be renegotiated and then TPE drivers and guards have to be instructed so they "learn the route" which costs a lot of money.
It would be great if we had British Rail again with all trains under "one banner" but as I said earlier we have to deal with reality, not what we would like. The Metro was never part of BR so its negative effect on Sunderland would remain.
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It's the same issue Cambridge had, capacity wasn't constrained anywhere near Cambridge, it was at Hitchin, where Cambridge traffic required crossing two fast and one slow line of the ECML.

Hitchin flyover being built meant those conflicting moves don't happen any more, but they had a massive business case for that in Kings Cross-Cambridge which included the Thameslink extension to Cambridge and what was supposed to be two local trains per hour from Kings Cross/Maidenhead. Thameslink was having a lot of money thrown at it back then and there was empty space north of Hitchin station to build it.

In the same way, Sunderland would be constrained not by Sunderland, but by Northallerton. The business case for a flyover at Northallerton just for the Durham Coast must be very scant.

You will know more than me about this @PinzaC55, but if trains did not proceed into Northallerton station (which wouldn't help the business case much but might not be a disaster) could they not use Longlands Jn to access the underpass and reach the line towards Yarm at Northallerton East Jn?

You could even put a new platform face on the west side of the current west car park north of Boroughbridge Rd to enable northbound diverging traffic for Middlesbrough and the coast to avoid stopping on the main line.
 
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Zimba said:
There's only the one TPE service up to Newcastle now the Man Airport service got culled awhile back because of the pathing issues on the ECML. There's only 6 hourly paths available and LNER got an extra path instead.
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Not true. This was a proposal and that timetable change did not happen. LNER are not using an extra path.
There are still (when they are running) TPE services to Liverpool & Man Pic.
Beau Peep said:
there might be extensions possible like LNER do now and Transpennine once did albeit via Newcastle.
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As has been mentioned, LNER propose scrapping that extension - so can conclude it's not viable.
Zimba said:
Another thing that you could potentially do is use, if the LNER services ever actually get up to Middlesbrough, is splitting the trains somewhere.
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LNER have been serving Middlesbrough directly since December 2021.
Zimba said:
There's no need for 6 trains an hour on the Metro tbh.
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Here's a ground breaking idea. An interchange. Frequent local services to a hub station (let's call it Newcastle). You can have local services (let's call it Metro) that people can use everyday and also use for their annual trip to the airport or their occasional trip to the hub to travel out of region.
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I'm all for seeing improvements to the Durham Coast line but the idea that every station needs direct services to everywhere, because people can't be bothered to change trains, is stupid & expensive. Go live in a big city for a while and see how public transport works.
 
BOBOBOB said:
As has been mentioned, LNER propose scrapping that extension - so can conclude it's not viable.
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One a day leaving at half five in the morning and arriving at half ten at night going via Newcastle isn't the best bellwether of viability. Grand Central is a much better example and they're still here after 15 years. Plus I was talking about extensions from the south, not Newcastle, which would open up new journey possibilities. Extending Newcastle terminators back down to Sunderland offers few.

BOBOBOB said:
Here's a ground breaking idea. An interchange. Frequent local services to a hub station (let's call it Newcastle). You can have local services (let's call it Metro) that people can use everyday and also use for their annual trip to the airport or their occasional trip to the hub to travel out of region.
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Can't disagree with this mind
 
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BOBOBOB said:
Not true. This was a proposal and that timetable change did not happen. LNER are not using an extra path.
There are still (when they are running) TPE services to Liverpool & Man Pic.

As has been mentioned, LNER propose scrapping that extension - so can conclude it's not viable.

LNER have been serving Middlesbrough directly since December 2021.

Here's a ground breaking idea. An interchange. Frequent local services to a hub station (let's call it Newcastle). You can have local services (let's call it Metro) that people can use everyday and also use for their annual trip to the airport or their occasional trip to the hub to travel out of region.
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I'm all for seeing improvements to the Durham Coast line but the idea that every station needs direct services to everywhere, because people can't be bothered to change trains, is stupid & expensive. Go live in a big city for a while and see how public transport works.
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I missed the Manchester Airport ones coming back up every 2 hours, it changes so many times.

I agree with the hub idea but even still 6 TPH an hour on the Metro is overkill, even at the current 5 TPH. The trains carry around fresh air most the day as there just simply isn't the demand, for me it's more about releasing the space for the intermediate stops along the line. Places like Hartlepool (70k), Seaham (20k), Peterlee / Horden (20k) are are all stuck with an hourly service pretty much because if it and they deserve more and they also deserve better links to a hub ie. York. You can't really expect someone from Hartlepool to travel all the way up to Newcastle to head back South but right now other than the few services on Grand Central they've got very little more. No trains should be extended from Newcastle to Sunderland though as that's pointless.

Not to mention it would open more paths from freight to get them off the ECML and potentially get another path on there.

The LNER trains were also meant to be 1TP2H to Middlesbrough aswell but it never happened and all they got is the daily service which leaves London at 3pm which is useless for anyone down for the day.
 
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Forty said:
The LNER train up to Boro, returns empty to the Heaton depot using the Durham Coast line.
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You think they'd run it in service, even if it was just a Boro - Hartlepool - Sunderland - Newcastle one off journey. It's doing it pretty much anyway. I know it's why the TPE services exist to Edinburgh as they're stabled up there and were similarly running empty.
 
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