Sunderland railway station.

[Beau Peep]

Blown my mind this like. Never heard of it.

Started under Virgin Trains East Coast, I think they made it a franchise commitment in their bid. LNER (Directly Operated Railways) took over the franchise and had to maintain it. I'm amazed with all the swingeing cuts the government are making train operating companies make to services everywhere (and letting them make the cuts they want) to "save money", that it hasn't been dropped.

They even named a HST power car "Spirit of Sunderland", long gone from LNER now but still running track inspection trains for Network Rail.

Logon or register to see this image

 

[zwartekat]

Not sure why there's always a few on here who don't seem to understand that most of us know Newcastle is the major place in the NE but we can still want a decent level of service and amenities for our own city rather than just let it degenerate further.

 

[PhilY]

I'm not I'm just being honest mate. There's no demand towards Sunderland so you'd just have empty trains carrying nothing.

Any of these paths should be put for the Durham Coast instead. Places like Seaham have unacceptable levels of service and are the sort of people who would actually travel to Sunderland and would actually benefit the city.

You have to remember Sunderland is only 170k when you take the areas outside of the A19 out who are 50/50 to Durham and aren't going to double back.

Didn't mean to come across as harsh. Wigan is a bit like Darlington and Carlisle that it happens to just be in the right place, just noticed it's on it now. It's one of the main lines to Glasgow from Manchester.

How do you know there is ‘no demand towards Sunderland’. It’s another ludicrous statement from you on this topic.
I am telling you that I am asking for better connections from Sunderland - and judging by others posters on this topic there certainly seems to be interest - so even on this tiny sample your statement is patently wrong.

Current demand from Sunderland is being mopped up by Newcastle and, to a lesser extent, Durham.

The franchise system is purpose-made to support broader economic development by supporting non-commercial services to the benefit of the wider area. Every single franchise around GB includes such services and has done since privatisation in the 1990’s. (I bet British Rail did that before then too).

I’m saying that it’s time for Sunderland to stake its claim for transport support towards its economic development.

 

[EDGE]

Let's hope Zimba doesn't run for Mayor.

 

[Zimba]

I'm not an expert by any means but you don't seem to know much about railway planning.
New railways and services create new traffic, usually in excess of feasibility studies. When the Borders Railway (former Waverley line from Edinburgh to Carlisle) was reopened between Edinburgh and Tweedbank the passenger figures were about 5 times the projections.
I was one of the people who though Grand Central would fail because I thought there'd be no demand for rail services from Sunderland to London but I was wrong. Grand Central created new traffic. As I said earlier reopening Sunderland - Durham is virtually impossible but if was done the trains would be chock a bloc because it would create new journey opportunities.

These are new lines though not duplicate services. I've nothing against Sunderland to Durham though, but more for the intermediate stations as much as anything. Some sizeable towns like Houghton etc. Most the suggestions here are extending services from Newcastle to Sunderland and nothing more and it's just pointless. I do think there could be scope for making Grand Central more frequent though even if it was just shorts to York, or maybe some to Leeds instead running from their Colton depot.

If Sunderland wants more trains to elsewhere, the biggest hinderance is Teesside imo. If were being serious about moving people to cars then the ideal thing would be to build some form of tunnel / bridge from Seal Sands across to Teesport. It would be expensive but arguably better than building another road bridge.

Means you could open York - Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Sunderland trains and imo the demand would be there which isn't possible currently. The trains from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough currently are like running on a cart horse, the timings for the 21st century is just appalling with a detour around Stockton not serving anywhere and Eaglescliffe is a terrible station for London trains.

I disagree with most of what you say.

1. The city centre of Sunderland currently has around 3,000 people living in it, very soon it's going to be at least double to 6,000, but possible up to 10,000.

2. No-one from London need to be in a place like Sunderland? Maybe apart many companies like Hayes Travel which have their HO in the centre of Sunderland where staff frequently travel to, from all around the country, that's one of many Sunderland located businesses.

3. Within the next decade (about an extra 2,000 as early as next year when the L&G offices open) up to 10,000 office workers, based in the City Centre.

4. New start ups like the new Film studio's at Crown Works for major Film and TV attracting people from all over the world.

5. It's in the City Plan for continued investment in the Port of Sunderland, most of the off-shore supply ships that are increasing using Sunderland use it for crew changes, they need to get to Sunderland somehow, I wonder how they might achieve that?

6. This is just the beginning of the re-emergence of Sunderland.

As you can see future demand for better services to Sunderland should become a reality. It's no good planning

But there's already services to London, how many more services are realistically needed? There's also soon to be 6 trains an hour to Newcastle which is a bloody excellent service, ignoring the local rivaries. Some parts of London don't get that level of service so anyone wanting to go to places like Pallion have that direct link, not to mention the direct link to the airport aswell.

Personally Sunderland is well served imo for going distant places. It's the local routes that are the problem even if it does mean having to connect elsewhere. There's a lot of places with a much worse service.

How do you know there is ‘no demand towards Sunderland’. It’s another ludicrous statement from you on this topic.
I am telling you that I am asking for better connections from Sunderland - and judging by others posters on this topic there certainly seems to be interest - so even on this tiny sample your statement is patently wrong.

Current demand from Sunderland is being mopped up by Newcastle and, to a lesser extent, Durham.

The franchise system is purpose-made to support broader economic development by supporting non-commercial services to the benefit of the wider area. Every single franchise around GB includes such services and has done since privatisation in the 1990’s. (I bet British Rail did that before then too).

I’m saying that it’s time for Sunderland to stake its claim for transport support towards its economic development.

Do you use the trains every day, as if everyone use the trains 2 times a year then who's using them every other day. The ECML works because people are using the trains from Sunderland aswell; take Sunderland away then the ECML would start to struggle aswell. There's also a very sizable chunk of people who travel locally on the ECML trains, especially between Durham and Newcastle; there's no local flow between Sunderland and Newcastle as the Metro already covers it.

So unless suddenly half of Sunderland needs to go Leeds and London every day then who's going to be using these? Grand Central also has this benefit that it serves Teesside aswell. Take away Teesside / Hartlepool and it wouldn't exist either and that's over 600k people. Unless you build a line to Durham or push them down the Durham Coast then it won't work omit either and it'll be dead like the LNER service every day.

See the first post for the only genuine thing that would get intercity or regional trains to Sunderland but it means working out of area.

 

[Weremuthe]

That sort apathy is a lot of the reason why Sunderland lost it's services/facilities, just accepting things and not fighting back, we as a City need to demand more not less.

There was supposed to be a leafletting session today (11:00 Saturday 15/07/2023) outside the Sunderland ticket office by local Trades Council activists, with more to come.

 

[KarenDent]

Let's hope Zimba doesn't run for Mayor.

We’d get nowt

 

[EDGE]

We’d get nowt

God help us. He must be a plant.

 

[PhilY]

I remember a few years back at work Network Rail coming in to get feedback off drivers etc. they are always on about congestion north of Northallerton. I said sort the coast out and run some round there to ease it and serving a big city as well. Lots of nodding heads and notes taken. Of course nowt happened. I had heard from a gaffer a few years ago XC had looked into going through Sunderland but talks didn’t go very far. In my opinion nothing will happen mostly due to cost and profit route learning etc. Unfortunately these days the railway isn’t about provided a public service which is a shame. We’re stuck with the metro and GC.

We just need the Department for Transport to list Sunderland services in the contract (eg for TPE) and the operator would have to take them on. If some aren’t profitable, they’ll balance those across the rest of the franchisee network (as they currently do for literally thousands of other journeys!).

I also think Sunderland should leave Nexus. They’re a Tyneside based organisation with zero interest in Wearside.

The Durham Coast line is available today. True, it would benefit from an upgrade and that will take funds and time, but there’s literally nothing (other than Nexus) stopping that from happening straight away.

 

[diggers22]

We just need the Department for Transport to list Sunderland services in the contract (eg for TPE) and the operator would have to take them on. If some aren’t profitable, they’ll balance those across the rest of the franchisee network (as they currently do for literally thousands of other journeys!).

I also think Sunderland should leave Nexus. They’re a Tyneside based organisation with zero interest in Wearside.

The Durham Coast line is available today. True, it would benefit from an upgrade and that will take funds and time, but there’s literally nothing (other than Nexus) stopping that from happening straight away.

Worst thing that happened to Sunderland is the metro in my opinion. What did you do at GC. Know a couple of lads there from my freight days. I’d love to drive down coast again. Been nearly 30 years since I’ve been round there.

 

[Zimba]

God help us. He must be a plant.

We’d get nowt

I just don't live in a bubble world like some on here. The transport North of the Tyne is just as bad in loads of places, the West End of Newcastle for example has absolutely nothing in terms of Metro's etc. Cramlington has 1 train per hour, Morpeth is placemeal. Killingworth has nothing at all but a railway line running straight through it etc.

Gateshead pretty much has nothing at all and is the same size as Sunderland apart from the few Metro stations stringing along the outskirts. The whole region absolutely sucks and that's before going to places like Derwentside that has nothing at all.

Sunderland really isn't doing bad at all. Personally I'd be more bothered about trying to get most of Sunderland within 15 minute walk of a Metro station / train station by getting stations through Hendon and trying to get the Doxford Park line higher priority with Leamside covering the other side. These are more important than trains to Leeds imo.

The Northumberland Line is great news though and is the first real investment North of the Tyne since 1991 and the airport extension.

Worst thing that happened to Sunderland is the metro in my opinion. What did you do at GC. Know a couple of lads there from my freight days. I’d love to drive down coast again. Been nearly 30 years since I’ve been round there.

Agreed to be honest, as it's made any services further South of Sunderland awkward and any extensions to stuff like TPE don't have any traffic which would've supported it. Only really benefitted Newcastle and even I'd admit that and it's never really busy. Be interesting to see how people will react when they have to stand for 30 minutes as they've chosen longitunal seats which are inappropiate for the distances.

 

[PinzaC55]

These are new lines though not duplicate services. I've nothing against Sunderland to Durham though, but more for the intermediate stations as much as anything. Some sizeable towns like Houghton etc. Most the suggestions here are extending services from Newcastle to Sunderland and nothing more and it's just pointless. I do think there could be scope for making Grand Central more frequent though even if it was just shorts to York, or maybe some to Leeds instead running from their Colton depot.

If Sunderland wants more trains to elsewhere, the biggest hinderance is Teesside imo. If were being serious about moving people to cars then the ideal thing would be to build some form of tunnel / bridge from Seal Sands across to Teesport. It would be expensive but arguably better than building another road bridge.

Means you could open York - Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Sunderland trains and imo the demand would be there which isn't possible currently. The trains from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough currently are like running on a cart horse, the timings for the 21st century is just appalling with a detour around Stockton not serving anywhere and Eaglescliffe is a terrible station for London trains.







But there's already services to London, how many more services are realistically needed? There's also soon to be 6 trains an hour to Newcastle which is a bloody excellent service, ignoring the local rivaries. Some parts of London don't get that level of service so anyone wanting to go to places like Pallion have that direct link, not to mention the direct link to the airport aswell.



Personally Sunderland is well served imo for going distant places. It's the local routes that are the problem even if it does mean having to connect elsewhere. There's a lot of places with a much worse service.







Do you use the trains every day, as if everyone use the trains 2 times a year then who's using them every other day. The ECML works because people are using the trains from Sunderland aswell; take Sunderland away then the ECML would start to struggle aswell. There's also a very sizable chunk of people who travel locally on the ECML trains, especially between Durham and Newcastle; there's no local flow between Sunderland and Newcastle as the Metro already covers it.



So unless suddenly half of Sunderland needs to go Leeds and London every day then who's going to be usin
g these? Grand Central also has this benefit that it serves Teesside aswell. Take away Teesside / Hartlepool and it wouldn't exist either and that's over 600k people. Unless you build a line to Durham or push them down the Durham Coast then it won't work omit either and it'll be dead like the LNER service every day.

See the first post for the only genuine thing that would get intercity or regional trains to Sunderland but it means working out of area.

"These are new lines though not duplicate services. I've nothing against Sunderland to Durham though, but more for the intermediate stations as much as anything. Some sizeable towns like Houghton etc. Most the suggestions here are extending services from Newcastle to Sunderland and nothing more and it's just pointless. I do think there could be scope for making Grand Central more frequent though even if it was just shorts to York, or maybe some to Leeds instead running from their Colton depot."

I said new services generate new traffic as do new lines and I gave Grand Central as an example.

"If Sunderland wants more trains to elsewhere, the biggest hinderance is Teesside imo. If were being serious about moving people to cars then the ideal thing would be to build some form of tunnel / bridge from Seal Sands across to Teesport. It would be expensive but arguably better than building another road bridge."

A tunnel under the Tees is completely unrealistic, a fantasy. I only talk about things which are possible , and are known to work.

"Means you could open York - Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Sunderland trains and imo the demand would be there which isn't possible currently. The trains from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough currently are like running on a cart horse, the timings for the 21st century is just appalling with a detour around Stockton not serving anywhere and Eaglescliffe is a terrible station for London trains."

That isn't true (the cart horse bit). The Durham coast line has been upgraded in recent years with new signalling etc. Sunderland is the bottleneck due to the Metro.

 

[Zimba]

"These are new lines though not duplicate services. I've nothing against Sunderland to Durham though, but more for the intermediate stations as much as anything. Some sizeable towns like Houghton etc. Most the suggestions here are extending services from Newcastle to Sunderland and nothing more and it's just pointless. I do think there could be scope for making Grand Central more frequent though even if it was just shorts to York, or maybe some to Leeds instead running from their Colton depot."

I said new services generate new traffic as do new lines and I gave Grand Central as an example.

"If Sunderland wants more trains to elsewhere, the biggest hinderance is Teesside imo. If were being serious about moving people to cars then the ideal thing would be to build some form of tunnel / bridge from Seal Sands across to Teesport. It would be expensive but arguably better than building another road bridge."

A tunnel under the Tees is completely unrealistic, a fantasy. I only talk about things which are possible , and are known to work.

"Means you could open York - Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Sunderland trains and imo the demand would be there which isn't possible currently. The trains from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough currently are like running on a cart horse, the timings for the 21st century is just appalling with a detour around Stockton not serving anywhere and Eaglescliffe is a terrible station for London trains."

That isn't true (the cart horse bit). The Durham coast line has been upgraded in recent years with new signalling etc. Sunderland is the bottleneck due to the Metro.

Tbf any lines up here is unrealistic even known I agree the tunnel is fantasy and won't ever happen but neither will the lines between South Hylton and Washington either. I can bet with my hat eventually they'll get the money to do Washington to Pelaw and then sell it as a big win even known it does nothing to Sunderland. There's too many blocks, the A19 in particular and the fact there's never been a line from the Victoria Bridge to Sunderland which no doubt will be a problem in itself. There's houses in the way for starters.

The line is absolutely appalling between Billingham and Middlesbrough though, very slow and extremely outdated. It's better further North though. No arguments about the Metro though.

The whole network around Teesside always feels forgotten about though. Infact Teesside in general is.

 

[vinegar hill]

I disagree with most of what you say.

1. The city centre of Sunderland currently has around 3,000 people living in it, very soon it's going to be at least double to 6,000, but possible up to 10,000.

2. No-one from London need to be in a place like Sunderland? Maybe apart many companies like Hayes Travel which have their HO in the centre of Sunderland where staff frequently travel to, from all around the country, that's one of many Sunderland located businesses.

3. Within the next decade (about an extra 2,000 as early as next year when the L&G offices open) up to 10,000 office workers, based in the City Centre.

4. New start ups like the new Film studio's at Crown Works for major Film and TV attracting people from all over the world.

5. It's in the City Plan for continued investment in the Port of Sunderland, most of the off-shore supply ships that are increasing using Sunderland use it for crew changes, they need to get to Sunderland somehow, I wonder how they might achieve that?

6. This is just the beginning of the re-emergence of Sunderland.

As you can see future demand for better services to Sunderland should become a reality. It's no good planning

Stop being positive and optimistic mate, it just won’t do.

 

[PhilY]

Worst thing that happened to Sunderland is the metro in my opinion. What did you do at GC. Know a couple of lads there from my freight days. I’d love to drive down coast again. Been nearly 30 years since I’ve been round there.

I was in the Legal team at Arriva so sadly I didn’t get to ride the rails myself. Lovely bunch of people there though.

 

[Darlo1973]

Been saying thst for months
All this carry on with no service due to strikes is just a dry run to see demonstrate how we would cope without trains
Hs2 don’t make me laugh

The problem with HS2 is that it isn't ambitious enough. We should be building a national HS network not just one line.

This is what the EU is proposing

You must be logged on to see external links

 

[Redandwhitedust]

I'm not an expert by any means but you don't seem to know much about railway planning.
New railways and services create new traffic, usually in excess of feasibility studies. When the Borders Railway (former Waverley line from Edinburgh to Carlisle) was reopened between Edinburgh and Tweedbank the passenger figures were about 5 times the projections.
I was one of the people who though Grand Central would fail because I thought there'd be no demand for rail services from Sunderland to London but I was wrong. Grand Central created new traffic. As I said earlier reopening Sunderland - Durham is virtually impossible but if was done the trains would be chock a bloc because it would create new journey opportunities.

With a name like that (which I've just worked out) I figured you would be a rail expert

Truth is, you are right. Routes create their own demand to an extent. How many people from the Northeast would ever have visited Gdansk if there hadn't been a regular direct flight from Newcastle? No one was calling for a Newcastle to Zadar flight. But Ryanair started it and I bet they aren't running flights empty.

There's probably not much demand for Sunderland-Leeds now. But if there was an hourly train, demand would grow. Not to mention similar growth from other stations along the line

 

[Darlo1973]

With a name like that (which I've just worked out) I figured you would be a rail expert

Truth is, you are right. Routes create their own demand to an extent. How many people from the Northeast would ever have visited Gdansk if there hadn't been a regular direct flight from Newcastle? No one was calling for a Newcastle to Zadar flight. But Ryanair started it and I bet they aren't running flights empty.

There's probably not much demand for Sunderland-Leeds now. But if there was an hourly train, demand would grow. Not to mention similar growth from other stations along the line

Yes, it's called "induced demand" and in the aviation industry, Ryanair have been the masters of it. Put on a cheap service and people will use it.

 

[royaldragon]

That isn't true (the cart horse bit). The Durham coast line has been upgraded in recent years with new signalling etc. Sunderland is the bottleneck due to the Metro.

The Durham Coast Line really needs the line speed increasing where it's possible to somewhere between 80-100 MPH. Upgraded signaling is fine and it helps, but the poor track speed restrictions hold it back.

 

[PinzaC55]

The Durham Coast Line really needs the line speed increasing where it's possible to somewhere between 80-100 MPH. Upgraded signaling is fine and it helps, but the poor track speed restrictions hold it back.

The problem is that it has tight curves at Hall Dene, Cemetery (Hartlepool), Hartlepool station and Norton among other places. There's nothing you can do about them. I believe they are reopening the second platform at Hartlepool and that will be a big help.