Sir Ben Stokes the GAROAT?

[Jack Torrance]

Does anyone think stokes would get into the england team if he was a rabbit with the bat? Obviously fitness would make that argument redundant generally but even when fully fit i can't really see it and to me thats the mark of the very best all rounders - if they couldn't bowl they'd get in as a bat only and if they batted 11 they'd still get picked

In red ball cricket a fully fit Stokes would get in the side as a bowler

 

[CollingwoodFTM]

I still think Botham is right up there for me, between 77-82 he was untouchable and won games with bat and ball regularly. Had he not gone on with a chronic back injury, loss of form and playing in a poor side on/off for the next 10 years, he would have likely finished with a batting average of 40 and a bowling average of 23-25, which would have been remarkable given the amount of runs scored and wickets taken. He was a superb fielder and a complete entertainer - the last English cricketer to dominate the front pages.

Stokes has the ability to play unbelievable innings under the highest pressure and could easily play as a top order batsman only, but his bowling has never been close to that of Botham's IMO.

That’s the answer for me.

 

[The Breen Machine]

Does anyone think stokes would get into the england team if he was a rabbit with the bat? Obviously fitness would make that argument redundant generally but even when fully fit i can't really see it and to me thats the mark of the very best all rounders - if they couldn't bowl they'd get in as a bat only and if they batted 11 they'd still get picked

He would be a 4th seamer I think. He is capable of bowling long spells and making things happen when the game goes quiet, but he has never been someone who can consistently bowl 30/40 threatening overs a match. He isn't the type of bowler to hold up an end either.

 

[Julio Mackemo]

No. Not even close either.

On his day he’s an absolute force of nature but players like Jaques kallis were far better.

Kallis is a bit of a hero of mine but he never won anything for his team iirc

2 world cups MOTM both finals, t20 runner up, that ashes knock in 2019, the 6 record in test cricket, the countless stunning/match winning innings throughout.
Highest ODI score for England.

His captaincy already (imagine if he wins in Oz and gets a win in India), 2 more years and he may have the most wins as test captain.

Then theres the small matter of near 200 test wickets, plus his fielding to factor in.

A great all rounder (Captaincy does count too, sorry Sangakarra not sure WK is enough to qualify outright from WK despite your 57 test batting average)

Kallis is the better batsman and I think they are very similar in bowling I.e rarely taking 5 fors etc...but bowling crucial match changing spells.

But stokes has won more games for England than Kallis imo.

Just for England in order, I'd have
Bat - stokes, Botham, Freddie
Bowl - Botham, Freddie, Stokes
Captaincy - Stokes, Freddie, Botham
Fielding - Stokes, Freddie/Botham

I mean, Ashwin and Jadeja have far better stats with the ball and both are very good with the bat - you just gotta factor in the pitches and conditions they played in

Great post. Ashwin is one of those, that has great home record and a bit average away record.... unless i'm wrong

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

Aye, I can’t argue with that like - I think in terms of big game performances and accolades won Stokes has an advantage though.

You can look at averages, but if you were picking an all-time XI, Stokes has more of a chance than Kallis imo.

You can’t bottle what he can do when the heat is on, in World Cup finals, massive Ashes tests.

Also, given his impact, you’d have to consider him as captain. There aren’t many who have turned things around so effectively in terms of leadership. And yes, I am talking about the entire history of the game - it’s that remarkable what he has done.

 

[Twisted]

He would be a 4th seamer I think. He is capable of bowling long spells and making things happen when the game goes quiet, but he has never been someone who can consistently bowl 30/40 threatening overs a match. He isn't the type of bowler to hold up an end either.

I just don't think a 4 seamer is picked as a number 11 especially in this day and age and this england team.

Could argue fitness has played a big part but you have to judge him on his career not potential

 

[SuperK]

Was interested after reading this. Taking NOs out of the equation batting averages are stokes 34, imran 30

Thank you for checking this out. Whenever this debate comes up about Imran v Botham i argue Imran never took any responsibility as a batsman.

 

[fazza1970]

Check their records and get back to me

Yes. Far better. Shouldn’t even be a conversation.

Stokes isn’t even an all rounder anymore. If we are comparing their batting skills then kallis is light years ahead of him

I did. Details in a previous post.
You could do with a read.
Get back to me on that, and on Kallis' track record for winning showpiece matches/trophies single-handed...

 

[SAFC 2012]

I did. Details in a previous post.
You could do with a read.
Get back to me on that, and on Kallis' track record for winning showpiece matches/trophies single-handed...

I said stokes has had the more eye catching/ match winning innings previously

You could do with a read

 

[fazza1970]

I said stokes has had the more eye catching/ match winning innings previously

You could do with a read

"more eye-catching innings"? You mean he's performed miracles when it's mattered most.
Does the phrase "cometh the hour..." ring any bells?
If so, what does the fact that SA have never reached an ODI or T20 World Cup final - let alone won either tournament - say about the Kallis being "far better" than Stokes (MoM in 2019 WC final, top scorer in 2022 T20 WC final) argument?
I repeat: Kallis was a remarkable player - the best all-rounder of the modern era. But he wasn't far better than Stokes.

 

[SAFC 2012]

"more eye-catching innings"? You mean he's performed miracles when it's mattered most.
Does the phrase "cometh the hour..." ring any bells?
If so, what does the fact that SA have never reached an ODI or T20 World Cup final - let alone won either tournament - say about the Kallis being "far better" than Stokes (MoM in 2019 WC final, top scorer in 2022 T20 WC final) argument?
I repeat: Kallis was a remarkable player - the best all-rounder of the modern era. But he wasn't far better than Stokes.

You can calm down now mate. Just opinions and you haven’t changed mine.

 

[mosi]

What a brilliant thread this is!

RTG Cricket board at its best