School Shooter Parent found Liable as Precedent Set

Harry Angstrom said:
Very dangerous precedent has been set IMHO.

Being a hopeless parent and adult is not a crime. If it was half the population would be inside.
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From what I've read the conduct of the parents adds up to the kind of child neglect that ought to have seen social services take the kid off them years before this incident and have a discussion about whether they could charge them for something. However America doesn't strike me as the kind of place that provides much support for that kind of social services role in society.

It also doesn't surprise me that a kid growing up in that environment turns out to be a school shooter, but that in and of itself is a tricky thing to legislate in court imho. It does seem however like they had every reason to suspect he was about to go on a killing spree and not only did they ignore the signs, they blew off meetings with the school who were calling out that he was in crisis and supplied the kid with the murder weapon. I can totally see how they're being held criminally liable for that.

It is ironic though that a country which currently makes it almost impossible to control whether someone with violent mental health issues gets hold of a gun wants to prosecute two individuals for not stopping a violent mentally ill person from getting a gun.
 
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Qwerty said:
You could argue the parents in question showed neglect.
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They certainly did.
Cockney Mackem said:
From what I've read the conduct of the parents adds up to the kind of child neglect that ought to have seen social services take the kid off them years before this incident and have a discussion about whether they could charge them for something. However America doesn't strike me as the kind of place that provides much support for that kind of social services role in society.

It also doesn't surprise me that a kid growing up in that environment turns out to be a school shooter, but that in and of itself is a tricky thing to legislate in court imho. It does seem however like they had every reason to suspect he was about to go on a killing spree and not only did they ignore the signs, they blew off meetings with the school who were calling out that he was in crisis and supplied the kid with the murder weapon. I can totally see how they're being held criminally liable for that.

It is ironic though that a country which currently makes it almost impossible to control whether someone with violent mental health issues gets hold of a gun wants to prosecute two individuals for not stopping a violent mentally ill person from getting a gun.
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It is such a basket case of a country.
 
CatRyan said:
right so the son did not legally own the gun, the father did, the father who the mother said was agreed to be responsible for the gun, the unlocked gun hidden under some clothes, however he explicitly asked his mother for help and love and she was the last one to have the gun with the son at the range a day or so before the shooting
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Crazy people in a situation which they brought about. The rights of some Americans are lost on me. One on my neighbours did not pay their mortgage ,they got evicted. Yet they had 3 vehicles on lease. One just a top of the range Lexus SUV.This was their Sunday car,to go to church in,to appear affluent .It was more important to have the vehicles BECAUSE IT IS OUR RIGHT .FFS ! Could not pay for the house ,3 vehicles on lease. Another neighbour also lost their property ,2 new Toyotas on lease + face lifts (2) to cheer them up because of financial worries. You could not make this up.Gun and vehicle ownership is a big American macho thing.Living there for years only seemed to confirm my ideas of my close neighbours.Agree Florida is a state that might be totally different from the rest of the US.One country but totally divided by laws ands statutes.
 
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look out piano said:
The kid was clearly neglected and mentally ill, what parent gifts that child a gun ? ..........a f***ing self absorbed, narcissistic idiot, that's who !!!!
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I hear you and agree but do we want legal precedent that parenting can retrospectively be judged in this way?

I would be more comfortable if the point of law was first around the gun owner or homeowner who knows there are guns in the house, who didn't secure the gun safely with the lack of clear action by the gun owner secondary as support
 
Tadger said:
Giving a clearly mentally disturbed child a firearm is way beyond hopeless parenting.

It's criminal negligence.
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And I think that's what they should have been charged with.

Here they seem to be seen as somehow colluding in the killing which I don't think would have been their intention, even though buying the gun did enable him to kill.

It's complicated, but I think it's opening a can of worms that will gladden the lawyers' hearts, if no one else's.
 
STHLM said:
And I think that's what they should have been charged with.

Here they seem to be seen as somehow colluding in the killing which I don't think would have been their intention, even though buying the gun did enable him to kill.

It's complicated, but I think it's opening a can of worms that will gladden the lawyers' hearts, if no one else's.
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sorry the specific charge was Involuntary Manslaughter so it is understood it was not their intention nor with their conscious collusion
 
For those who want fact checked stuff and original source data

NY Times article on closing argument

apologies for the Fox link but this is just the actual closing argument, not with any fannying on by them


the defence's closing argument was so weird and pointless I won't share as it only tilts this more in favour of the Prosecution
STHLM said:
Ah, I see.
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I've posted a link for the Prosecution closing argument because there is a section where they bullet point the parameters needed to reach the conviction of Involuntary Manslaughter and then show the evidence they have against each
 
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CatRyan said:
I hear you and agree but do we want legal precedent that parenting can retrospectively be judged in this way?

I would be more comfortable if the point of law was first around the gun owner or homeowner who knows there are guns in the house, who didn't secure the gun safely with the lack of clear action by the gun owner secondary as support
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I understand, but giving him a gun is akin to giving Micheal Myers a knife and expecting him to do some whittling with it........not a good idea.
The kid should've been removed from the household long before he had a chance to be gifted a gun resulting in a murderous rampage.
A mother knows if her kid is troubled, she just chose to act oblivious to it instead of trying to get him the help and support he invariably needed.

She should be charged with something but not sure if what she's been convicted of was it !!
 
look out piano said:
I understand, but giving him a gun is akin to giving Micheal Myers a knife and expecting him to do some whittling with it........not a good idea.
The kid should've been removed from the household long before he had a chance to be gifted a gun resulting in a murderous rampage.
A mother knows if her kid is troubled, she just chose to act oblivious to it instead of trying to get him the help and support he invariably needed.

She should be charged with something but not sure if what she's been convicted of was it !!
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however you slice this tragic case the parenting or lack thereof was a massive and decisive factor in the culmination that left 4 dead and one imprisoned for life at 15

BUT the precedent to judge parents as liable is worrying

just hark back to the days of the Tories waging a war on single mothers in this country, or black people, or Irish, or immigrants etc how this could be used in that way

I agree with you this is about the gun, giving a gun to a child, an ill child, a neglected child, a gun loose and unlocked in the house with ammunition, the child left alone in the house with the gun... that is the avenue I look at this from, not the parent first but rather the gun safety aspect which ties to them as the parents of a minor who had free access to the gun they should not have got for him, not have had in the house unlocked, not have kept quiet about to the school who were alarmed by pictures he had drawn on a test he was submitting, so definitely for them to see, with pictures of his gun, dead bodies and statements of blood filling the halls etc mere hours before the incident, when she KNEW the gun was not locked up and she didn't know whether the child had the gun in school at that time, which he did.

Sorry got a bit ranty there... just feel absoutely radgy for that child and the children he killed for want of some proper gun safety and loving parenting
 
CatRyan said:
however you slice this tragic case the parenting or lack thereof was a massive and decisive factor in the culmination that left 4 dead and one imprisoned for life at 15

BUT the precedent to judge parents as liable is worrying

just hark back to the days of the Tories waging a war on single mothers in this country, or black people, or Irish, or immigrants etc how this could be used in that way

I agree with you this is about the gun, giving a gun to a child, an ill child, a neglected child, a gun loose and unlocked in the house with ammunition, the child left alone in the house with the gun... that is the avenue I look at this from, not the parent first but rather the gun safety aspect which ties to them as the parents of a minor who had free access to the gun they should not have got for him, not have had in the house unlocked, not have kept quiet about to the school who were alarmed by pictures he had drawn on a test he was submitting, so definitely for them to see, with pictures of his gun, dead bodies and statements of blood filling the halls etc mere hours before the incident, when she KNEW the gun was not locked up and she didn't know whether the child had the gun in school at that time, which he did.

Sorry got a bit ranty there... just feel absoutely radgy for that child and the children he killed for want of some proper gun safety and loving parenting
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It's an absolute tragedy, my heart goes out to all affected 😢
 
look out piano said:
It's an absolute tragedy, my heart goes out to all affected 😢
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I just can't get past the parents going into the office and seeing the test paper where he drew the school shooting pretty much and wrote his plans with a picture of his actual gun they gave him a few days before that they knew was not secured in the home and DIDN'T THINK TO MENTION THAT but rather cut the meeting short and left without even talking to their son or taking him home, they didn't even go home to check the gun was there

the mother's response to the school showing her the drawings on the test paper ( a test he didn't even bother to fill in properly as he had planned that day for the incident) was to say his messing up the test was because she had told him off for failing grades, she didn't mention the picture being of his actual gun, didn't mention the day before he had been told off for looking at bullets on the internet in class time, to which she told him next time "don't get caught" ffs
 
CatRyan said:
I just can't get past the parents going into the office and seeing the test paper where he drew the school shooting pretty much and wrote his plans with a picture of his actual gun they gave him a few days before that they knew was not secured in the home and DIDN'T THINK TO MENTION THAT but rather cut the meeting short and left without even talking to their son or taking him home, they didn't even go home to check the gun was there

the mother's response to the school showing her the drawings on the test paper ( a test he didn't even bother to fill in properly as he had planned that day for the incident) was to say his messing up the test was because she had told him off for failing grades, she didn't mention the picture being of his actual gun, didn't mention the day before he had been told off for looking at bullets on the internet in class time, to which she told him next time "don't get caught" ffs
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As I said earlier, she has a lot to answer for and her ignorance / unacceptable parenting led to the act the kid committed of which in most part she is responsible for.
She deserved a decent sentence tbf.
 
leecoo said:
hopefully starts some Americans deciding no longer to have guns in the house when they also have kids
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not sure this is exclusively applicable to parents being liable for their children... could be applied to housemates, family etc but as the Prosecutor said this was a particularly "rare case" we have parents giving a mentally unwell child a gun and refusing him medical help and doing absolutely nothing to safeguard the gun or prevent this from happening

one would hope this perfect storm would only blow in extremely rarely
 

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