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Sale is close - Barnsey

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Super Mario said:
All that means is he paid £20 million not 40, it's not going to win him any friends and it shows how much he underestimated is as fans and the intensity of the club generally. It's hardly a smoking gun though is it, there are plenty of real reasons to be upset with him about, the small time mentality of the academy, it's fairly clear now that the young lads who've left have done so for more money. He was clearly thinking that being in league one would mean young lads would be happy with less money just to stay at the club. It's crippled us and was absolutely shit decision making but again, none of this makes him a con man who's taking money from the club.

The structure of the purchase is neither here nor there, if he'd just been open and said Ellis gets the final parachute payment and I'm paying 20 it wouldn't have been a problem and he has since then put that money back into the club, if he remains the owner he will end up putting it all back in plus more.

I've waffled a bit there like but basically he either sells and we get what we want or he keeps the club and has no option but to put that money back into the club anyway, I'm presuming that will also make everyone happy?
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The £9m loan also counts as payback, as it came into Sunderland as share capital, and is therefore unrecoverable by Madrox. It doesn't matter that the source of the cash was FPP, because it's what Madrox puts back into the club that matters, not Donald personally.
 

Jigga Ray said:
I thought the inference was that the NDA was with his backers, not the club. Presumably, they wouldn't want to be associated with a failed bid. Anyone else take it this way? @Grumpy Old Man?
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He said he'd be able to reveal his backers a few weeks back didn't he. He's just full of absolute bollocks and I look forward to the absolute melt-down the day we're taken over by someone else and our fans get stuck into him on social media.
 
Super Mario said:
I've waffled a bit there like but basically he either sells and we get what we want or he keeps the club and has no option but to put that money back into the club anyway, I'm presuming that will also make everyone happy?
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Nope. That's the problem. He doesn't have to do anything now. He can cut back on player wages (and will anyway now), he can negotiate a sale that doesn't mean he has to put anything owed back in. He can do an awful lot, if he wants to, to avoid that being paid back.

As for what you say @Grumpy Old Man, I don't want to have a back and forth on this but you have already said yourself that what Donald did was stupid. It's very clear if we are taking a holistic approach that the parachute payments became an intrinsic part of Donald buying a club he couldn't (or wouldn't) buy with his own cash up front. That, to me, is why I define it as working capital, because it did work, but largely only for Donald.
 
Jigga Ray said:
I thought the inference was that the NDA was with his backers, not the club. Presumably, they wouldn't want to be associated with a failed bid. Anyone else take it this way? @Grumpy Old Man?
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Yeah I did too at the time, it sounded like a convenient reason not to answer the question he was being asked at the time.

Would put some good cash on him not having an NDA with these supposed backers or them actually being involved at all. He may have signed one with the club as part of submitting a bid - regardless of whether the club wanted his bid or not.
 
KittenMittens said:
Nope. That's the problem. He doesn't have to do anything now. He can cut back on player wages (and will anyway now), he can negotiate a sale that doesn't mean he has to put anything owed back in. He can do an awful lot, if he wants to, to avoid that being paid back.

As for what you say @Grumpy Old Man, I don't want to have a back and forth on this but you have already said yourself that what Donald did was stupid. It's very clear if we are taking a holistic approach that the parachute payments became an intrinsic part of Donald buying a club he couldn't (or wouldn't) buy with his own cash up front. That, to me, is why I define it as working capital, because it did work, but largely only for Donald.
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He won't have any other option but to put money into the club if we stay in league one, we'll lose even more in the championship, the only way he gets aways with not putting any money in is if he sells the club.

He could out the club into administration but that wouldn't help him get his own money out.
 
KittenMittens said:
Nope. That's the problem. He doesn't have to do anything now. He can cut back on player wages (and will anyway now), he can negotiate a sale that doesn't mean he has to put anything owed back in. He can do an awful lot, if he wants to, to avoid that being paid back.

As for what you say @Grumpy Old Man, I don't want to have a back and forth on this but you have already said yourself that what Donald did was stupid. It's very clear if we are taking a holistic approach that the parachute payments became an intrinsic part of Donald buying a club he couldn't (or wouldn't) buy with his own cash up front. That, to me, is why I define it as working capital, because it did work, but largely only for Donald.
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Well he doesn't have to pay it back like he said, but he can't make anyone pay extra when they will know of it. He's a seller in a shit market and any buyer knows he is having the screw turned on him due to all the circumstances etc. Add in he has the pressure of knowing the fans are wanting him out and he can do many things, but he can't make anyone pay over the odds if they don't want to.
 
nandos sonic sauce said:
Well he doesn't have to pay it back like he said, but he can't make anyone pay extra when they will know of it. He's a seller in a shit market and any buyer knows he is having the screw turned on him due to all the circumstances etc. Add in he has the pressure of knowing the fans are wanting him out and he can do many things, but he can't make anyone pay over the odds if they don't want to.
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It would also have made the club less appealing to know they have to buy madrox then are bound to put whatever remains of that money into the club, you'd hope they'd expect to put a bit more than that in for the long term anyway but they wouldn't be able to use it to offset tax liabilities of they already owe safc that money.
 
Super Mario said:
He won't have any other option but to put money into the club if we stay in league one, we'll lose even more in the championship, the only way he gets aways with not putting any money in is if he sells the club.

He could out the club into administration but that wouldn't help him get his own money out.
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Mate, I'm serious, these are not the only options. I'm not just saying this to have a pop at him, there are more options than ever at Donald's disposal. I'd say that less than 75% of our games will be dramatically affected by Covid (ie: we'll be able to get 25,000+ in by November which will be standard crowds for us in L1). In return, he's also managed to end up in charge of a club that can only spend £2.5m in wages (as opposed to more like £6-10m over the last 2 years. He'll make some money from the TV stuff to make up for some of it too.

Him staying in charge is not a guarantee that any money comes back. I hope he does put it back, but we have seen that Madrox will do anything possible before putting their hands in their own pockets.

Let's hope a takeover comes along and makes this discussion moot.
 
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nandos sonic sauce said:
Well he doesn't have to pay it back like he said, but he can't make anyone pay extra when they will know of it. He's a seller in a shit market and any buyer knows he is having the screw turned on him due to all the circumstances etc. Add in he has the pressure of knowing the fans are wanting him out and he can do many things, but he can't make anyone pay over the odds if they don't want to.
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He can negotiate though. Legally, Madrox does not owe SAFC anything at all. The entire thing is quite abstract. I think he said 'I want back what I put in' as a way to illustrate that he feels his total obligation is at that point. Ultimately if someone offered him £28m and wiped that debt and the Madrox one, I believe he'd take that and we'd be £9m into the black hole of 'Donald ownership' when it all shakes out.

That's why it's important that he wiped the debt. Ultimately, now, his asking price is just a number that needs no actual justification beyond what he thinks is the right price and someone else is willing to pay. Both of these things are fluid, sadly.
 
KittenMittens said:
He can negotiate though. Legally, Madrox does not owe SAFC anything at all. The entire thing is quite abstract. I think he said 'I want back what I put in' as a way to illustrate that he feels his total obligation is at that point. Ultimately if someone offered him £28m and wiped that debt and the Madrox one, I believe he'd take that and we'd be £9m into the black hole of 'Donald ownership' when it all shakes out.

That's why it's important that he wiped the debt. Ultimately, now, his asking price is just a number that needs no actual justification beyond what he thinks is the right price and someone else is willing to pay. Both of these things are fluid, sadly.
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he not only wanted what he put in,he wanted to cover his losses at previous club which he said himself.

unfortunately we can’t believe a word him or CM say about the club or finances.
 
KittenMittens said:
Mate, I'm serious, these are not the only options. I'm not just saying this to have a pop at him, there are more options than ever at Donald's disposal. I'd say that less than 75% of our games will be dramatically affected by Covid (ie: we'll be able to get 25,000+ in by November which will be standard crowds for us in L1). In return, he's also managed to end up in charge of a club that can only spend £2.5m in wages (as opposed to more like £6-10m over the last 2 years. He'll make some money from the TV stuff to make up for some of it too.

Him staying in charge is not a guarantee that any money comes back. I hope he does put it back, but we have seen that Madrox will do anything possible before putting their hands in their own pockets.

Let's hope a takeover comes along and makes this discussion moot.
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That's theoretically possible but it would mean we'd have to stay in league one permanently and if that was the case people would just stop going to games, his income would dry up and more importantly than that he wants us promoted for his pay off.
 
KittenMittens said:
Mate, I'm serious, these are not the only options. I'm not just saying this to have a pop at him, there are more options than ever at Donald's disposal. I'd say that less than 75% of our games will be dramatically affected by Covid (ie: we'll be able to get 25,000+ in by November which will be standard crowds for us in L1). In return, he's also managed to end up in charge of a club that can only spend £2.5m in wages (as opposed to more like £6-10m over the last 2 years. He'll make some money from the TV stuff to make up for some of it too.

Him staying in charge is not a guarantee that any money comes back. I hope he does put it back, but we have seen that Madrox will do anything possible before putting their hands in their own pockets.

Let's hope a takeover comes along and makes this discussion moot.
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The problem Donald has - which this most rosy of scenarios paints - is that the pandemic introduces a f***ing ridiculous range of financial scenarios. Like Donald could ride it out, maybe, if all you said is a given. But it's not.

Less rosily, we could have a second wave and have no gate receipts for 75% of the year. Broadcasters could pull out because people lose interest and they decide to focus on the Messi-enhanced Premier League. In terms of its broadcast appeal, league one is really for the fans who go to games anyway, so if they are less engaged - why not? Then, for all that the salary cap reduces our cost base, its still easily the biggest in the league and how much more can he salami slice? He doesn't have a nice £10m Ivan Toney he can flog either - and its not a sellers market out there if he unearthed one, certainly not at our level.

He's a gambler, but this much of a gambler? He should park the ego and the optimism bias and sell-up.

Mind, if I were the prospective buyers, I'd be building him a bridge to climb-down. A little 5% holding, with no voting rights - why not?
 
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