Roy Keane a pariah?

[North of the Smoke]

We waste money, it is not manager specific.

The irony is that we appear to entrust large sums to the wrong people, and prevent those who are relatively intelligent from spending big.

Our billionaire benefactor needs a team running the club who actually understand and can influence the environment in which we operate.

 

[L1lyBrown]

Whatever anybody thinks of Keane he brought credibility to the brand SAFC.

 

[Top Of The Goths]

Imagine if Keane had done a Clive Clarke on promotion and had to be replaced. We get a new manager in and give him the neck end of 80 million to spend on players half of that in the first summer window. Less than a season and a half later you lose 4-1 at home to Bolton, the manager selects a goalkeeper with a broken foot, the captain is getting booed every time he touches the ball and we drop into the bottom three. You would describe that as a decent job?

 

[sksk3021]

Still don't think his list of signings in the first year is that bad. Second season was far worse as he seemed to get closer and closer to losing it.

 

[TartanMackem]

I have very little respect for managers who want a player, have a lot of money (which isn't theirs) spent on signing that player, and then very quickly decide that the player isn't good enough. That it happens on occasions I can accept, that it happens with regularity I cannot, and with Roy it was far too often.

Falling back on the old "wrong character" nonsense isn't good enough either. Do a bit more homework on their character before you sign them.

 

[Laeotaekhun]

No, Bruce's record wasn't, but his lack of a plan on how to utilize them was his downfall.

Keane restored some modicum of pride in a club where it's fans had died inside,
That three hours of mad transfer activity, followed by us battering Leeds and being compared with top flight teams was just what we needed to hear and feel after being dragged through burning coals. Hearts broken were able to mend thanks to that period.

Good post marra!

After a handful of games!!

Not dissimilar to last season!

When Keane appeared at the home game against West Brom our record (in the league) was P4, L4 and we had also lost at Bury to the bottom team in the Football League.

When PDC was sacked our record was (in the league) P5, D1, L4 but had beaten MK Dons in the League Cup.

In Keane's first season we ended up as Champions of what I still think of as Division 2 and last season we could celebrate avoiding relegation after the penultimate game.

This is not an attempt to suggest that everything Keane did was right because it very clearly was not and I think he left at the right time.

It is, though, an attempt to put matters into perspective for someone who appears to be pursuing an agenda.

 

[Mrjardine]

Good post marra!



Not dissimilar to last season!

When Keane appeared at the home game against West Brom our record (in the league) was P4, L4 and we had also lost at Bury to the bottom team in the Football League.

When PDC was sacked our record was (in the league) P5, D1, L4 but had beaten MK Dons in the League Cup.

In Keane's first season we ended up as Champions of what I still think of as Division 2 and last season we could celebrate avoiding relegation after the penultimate game.

This is not an attempt to suggest that everything Keane did was right because it very clearly was not and I think he left at the right time.

It is, though, an attempt to put matters into perspective for someone who appears to be pursuing an agenda.

Were is my agenda? I have repeatedly stated that Keane done a good job in getting us back up but the job certainly wasn't the poisoned chalice some are trying to paint it to be. What Reid did was miraculous what keane did was go one better than McCarthy in bringing us back up the season after a top flight disaster.
He then proceeded to spend a relative fortune on a bucketload of poor players and left us 18th in the table!
I don't think anything I've said there is factually incorrect . The only thing up for debate is what the respective posters opinion is on what is a poor player and what isn't.
As I've said Bruce gets absolute pelters off our fans because he had a grumble in the press about being sacked (which every manager does) and rightly (in my opinion) said as soon as it went pear shaped the fact he was a Geordie got brought up.
Keane dragged us to court and a poster describes this as unfortunate!! I don't think I'd dare log back into the SMB if Brucey decided he'd have his day in court with us.

 

[Perryqhill]

See I don't buy into this whole needing to convince players to join mind. Comes down to finance at end of day (see bent and Gyan) to tempt a player not club status. Out of all that money spent the only one we got any sort of return on was Kenwyne. That's a desperately poor return mind.


Perhaps it's a financial era the club are still struggling to move on from
though.

You don't buy it? How did Nugent, Leighton Baines (who admitted he could have got what he wanted) etc turn us down when we were chucking money around like confetti by your own admission? Cloud cuckoo land.

You always forget Keane had nowt much to sell when he arrived, a depleated squad with players of value already sold. Bruce sold the majority of Keane's signings making his 'net spend' (although doubling what we spent on agents) look prettier. Keane did waste a fair bit, but why state where we were when Keane left us, yet ignore that Bruce had that squad and further funds chucked at him, yet also left us in a similar position.

 

[The Hooded Claw]

I have very little respect for managers who want a player, have a lot of money (which isn't theirs) spent on signing that player, and then very quickly decide that the player isn't good enough. That it happens on occasions I can accept, that it happens with regularity I cannot, and with Roy it was far too often.

Falling back on the old "wrong character" nonsense isn't good enough either. Do a bit more homework on their character before you sign them.

No homework was necessary for Diouf and Chimbonda.

Anyway for me it will always be Niall Quinn who brought "pride" back to the club after 2005/06.

 

[Perryqhill]

No homework was necessary for Diouf and Chimbonda.

True. I do think in a bid to push us forward and being frustrated with have shitloads to spend and no one wanting to join we went after players of decent quality, but questionable characters. That didn't fit in with what Keane was going for or what had turned us around, it was the beginning of the end for him.

It was certainly Keane who got the pride back though, as much as Quinn was trying to push us in the right direction and his heart was in the right place, because of the lack of signings coming, no manager in and the start we had it took something a bit different to regain some belief and it came almost instantly with Keane's appointment.

 

[Ya ma]

I haven't read the whole thread but just in case nobody else has brought it up, the expenditure should be looked at in the context of the progress made.

We were victims of our own success rising from rock bottom of the chapuonship to mid table pl in such a short time , I recon we went through 2 and a bit teams in that time and it was absolutely neccesary to keep pace with our progress.

 

[Laeotaekhun]

Were is my agenda? I have repeatedly stated that Keane done a good job in getting us back up but the job certainly wasn't the poisoned chalice some are trying to paint it to be. What Reid did was miraculous what keane did was go one better than McCarthy in bringing us back up the season after a top flight disaster.

1) He then proceeded to spend a relative fortune on a bucketload of poor players and left us 18th in the table!

2) I don't think anything I've said there is factually incorrect . The only thing up for debate is what the respective posters opinion is on what is a poor player and what isn't.

3) As I've said Bruce gets absolute pelters off our fans because he had a grumble in the press about being sacked (which every manager does) and rightly (in my opinion) said as soon as it went pear shaped the fact he was a Geordie got brought up.

4) Keane dragged us to court and a poster describes this as unfortunate!! I don't think I'd dare log back into the SMB if Brucey decided he'd have his day in court with us.

I based my reply on not being pro Keane or anti Keane and just accepting him as part of our history, you seem to not be able to occupy that position.

1) It is a matter of debate (as you acknowledge in 2) if the players he brought o the club were good/bad/indifferent.

2) Not true! What should be debated (imho) is whether we overpaid for those players (I suspect we did that on more than a few occasions) or whether they provided value for money and if they allowed us to achieve our objective (retention of PL status).

3) Bruce (IMHO) received "pelters" because he was like a kid in sweetshop who grabbed as many players as he could but had no idea what he intended to do with them.

IIRC, the first time his "Geordie" roots were openly derided were in his final game in charge.

4) Please remind everyone of the outcome.

If, as I believe, you are the poster formerly known as MBH then can I, respectfully, suggest that you would be far better correcting the mistakes in your own books before attempting to find faults in others.

I would have thought that as someone who classes himself as an "SAFC historian" that getting the team sheets correct would have been a priority, especially during our '73 cup run.

Yours (assuming that you are who I think you are) are a joke!

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[Roy Cropper]

Keano put us back on the map at a time when we were on a downward spiral to another relegation to what is to all intents and purpose Div 3

 

[Linus]

I don't think I'd dare log back into the SMB if Brucey decided he'd have his day in court with us.

Just come back as MBH marra, job's a good'un.

 

[rentaghost]

True. I do think in a bid to push us forward and being frustrated with have shitloads to spend and no one wanting to join we went after players of decent quality, but questionable characters. That didn't fit in with what Keane was going for or what had turned us around, it was the beginning of the end for him.

It was certainly Keane who got the pride back though, as much as Quinn was trying to push us in the right direction and his heart was in the right place, because of the lack of signings coming, no manager in and the start we had it took something a bit different to regain some belief and it came almost instantly with Keane's appointment.

Signing Diouf and Chimbonda was a pathetic move. Keane was way out of his depth with those two. He thought 'I'm going to be a Clough here' signed two players with troublesome reputations to test himself, fined them when they didn't turn up for training and realized he could do absolute nowt to stop them do exactly what they wanted.

 

[Perryqhill]

Signing Diouf and Chimbonda was a pathetic move. Keane was way out of his depth with those two. He thought 'I'm going to be a Clough here' signed two players with troublesome reputations to test himself, fined them when they didn't turn up for training and realized he could do absolute nowt to stop them do exactly what they wanted.

Very true. It would have went wrong sooner or later given Keane's character, but signing players of that ilk just speeded things up. I couldn't believe it when we were linked with Diouf the night before he signed and although Chimbonda had looked a class act for a season and a bit the whole Wigan transfer request summed him up and I don't think he could really be bothered since the back end of his time at Spurs.

 

[Maravilla]

If Quinn hadn't told the world that we had plenty of money to spend, we wouldn't have been ripped off anything like as much as we were both in transfer fees and wages.

 

[Mrjardine]

You don't buy it? How did Nugent, Leighton Baines (who admitted he could have got what he wanted) etc turn us down when we were chucking money around like confetti by your own admission? Cloud cuckoo land.

You always forget Keane had nowt much to sell when he arrived, a depleated squad with players of value already sold. Bruce sold the majority of Keane's signings making his 'net spend' (although doubling what we spent on agents) look prettier. Keane did waste a fair bit, but why state where we were when Keane left us, yet ignore that Bruce had that squad and further funds chucked at him, yet also left us in a similar position.

Baines claimed the reason he joined Everton was because he supported them as a boy. All very romantic but they'll have offered him more. Portsmouth were chucking daft money around at time as well hence Nugent going there. Keane had a lot of money but it wasn't a bottomless pit like a Man City or Chelsea so clubs could still compete with us wage wise if they felt necessary. As no doubt we could with other clubs for certain players .
People are so naive when it comes to football and sport in general. It all comes down to pounds,shillings and pence. Status barely even registers with the players.
Why do English players invariably never move abroad you may wonder. Anything to do with we pay the biggest wages do you think?
Darren gough and Adrian Durham were discussing Ashley cole earlier on talksport.Durham the non sportsman saying that money shouldn't come into it all about moving abroad and bettering self etc etc. Gough the sportsman said no chance all about what you can make. From horses mouth so to speak.
We had our best chance of competing in my lifetime under Keane and I think he blew it despite his early good work. Bruce got rid of Keanes players because they almost got us relegated and replaced them with better. He also made us big profits on Bent and Mignolet as well as giving Henderson his chance. He took over after we finished 16th and left us there with a net spend of next to nothing. Yes his time was up but he never had anything like the funds that Keane had and I don't think any manager here will again either.

I based my reply on not being pro Keane or anti Keane and just accepting him as part of our history, you seem to not be able to occupy that position.

1) It is a matter of debate (as you acknowledge in 2) if the players he brought o the club were good/bad/indifferent.

2) Not true! What should be debated (imho) is whether we overpaid for those players (I suspect we did that on more than a few occasions) or whether they provided value for money and if they allowed us to achieve our objective (retention of PL status).

3) Bruce (IMHO) received "pelters" because he was like a kid in sweetshop who grabbed as many players as he could but had no idea what he intended to do with them.

IIRC, the first time his "Geordie" roots were openly derided were in his final game in charge.

4) Please remind everyone of the outcome.

If, as I believe, you are the poster formerly known as MBH then can I, respectfully, suggest that you would be far better correcting the mistakes in your own books before attempting to find faults in others.

I would have thought that as someone who classes himself as an "SAFC historian" that getting the team sheets correct would have been a priority, especially during our '73 cup run.

Yours (assuming that you are who I think you are) are a joke!

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Firstly this MBH thing is so boring it's untrue. If you think I'm him then crack on.
As for Bruce being like a kid in a sweet shop he brought in 23 players in his time as oppose to keanes 36. How can you aim that at Bruce and not Keane yet claim I'm the one with the agenda?
You also state that what keane did was achieve his objective (premiership status) I would suggest with the money spent that that shoudnt even have been an issue mind. Could also be argued that with him in charge we were well in our way to losing it as well!
West Brom was the first time the chants occurred by the way. Just as it was turning pear shaped as it happens!

 

[Perryqhill]

Baines claimed the reason he joined Everton was because he supported them as a boy. All very romantic but they'll have offered him more. Portsmouth were chucking daft money around at time as well hence Nugent going there. Keane had a lot of money but it wasn't a bottomless pit like a Man City or Chelsea so clubs could still compete with us wage wise if they felt necessary. As no doubt we could with other clubs for certain players .
People are so naive when it comes to football and sport in general. It all comes down to pounds,shillings and pence. Status barely even registers with the players.
Why do English players invariably never move abroad you may wonder. Anything to do with we pay the biggest wages do you think?
Darren gough and Adrian Durham were discussing Ashley cole earlier on talksport.Durham the non sportsman saying that money shouldn't come into it all about moving abroad and bettering self etc etc. Gough the sportsman said no chance all about what you can make. From horses mouth so to speak.
We had our best chance of competing in my lifetime under Keane and I think he blew it despite his early good work. Bruce got rid of Keanes players because they almost got us relegated and replaced them with better. He also made us big profits on Bent and Mignolet as well as giving Henderson his chance. He took over after we finished 16th and left us there with a net spend of next to nothing. Yes his time was up but he never had anything like the funds that Keane had and I don't think any manager here will again either.

“In the end, I think they made five bids all together from where they started from. It got to the point where he (Keane) was saying ‘whatever it takes’.

From Baines himself.

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Funny how you're claiming Keane was wasteful and we threw money around, but you think we couldn't compete with Everton on wages at that point. No doubt Everton wont have paid Baines a pittance, but Everton was a sound career choice, we all know coming here could be a bit iffy. Are you really naive enough to think a player would chose a newly promoted club over a club on the up, with a highly rated and proven manager who were playing CL football in the season just gone?

That's where your theory lets you down, players get that well paid wherever they go they can pick and choose, it's not like 15 years ago where Boro paying Ravanelli £50k a week meant he couldn't afford to turn them down even if it was a poor career choice. Now there's not many cases where there will be such a big difference with the wages on offer.

(English) Players don't move abroad so much at the moment as most English players aren't valued as highly and not worth what the clubs would need to pay them to get them over there in most cases. In Italy, Spain and Germany the highest players are on at least as much as the highest over here, but we pay average players more, that's why you get players like Giacherini coming over here as an Italian international and doubling his wage.

And Darren Gough come on, it's not the best example is it? A Cricketer ffs? Not even one playing when there's more money coming into Cricket, probably akin to footballers in the eighties

And the Keane's players only nearly got us relegated because Sbragia was in charge. We could and should have been safe by April that season. Laughable how you claim he gave us big profits on Bent (selling whom meant his side was turning into relegation material) and Mig (who was average under Bruce), the latter being sold two managers later. Then you're willing to give Bruce credit for selling players whom Keane bought or players like Collins and Murphy who's careers Keane's management turned around. Absolutely laughable, you want your cake and you want to eat it. Did Bruce replace them with better when he was signing Vaughan, Gardner, Angeleri, Westwood and the rest of the shit we were left with?

 

[Nelson!]

True. I do think in a bid to push us forward and being frustrated with have shitloads to spend and no one wanting to join we went after players of decent quality, but questionable characters. That didn't fit in with what Keane was going for or what had turned us around, it was the beginning of the end for him.

It was certainly Keane who got the pride back though, as much as Quinn was trying to push us in the right direction and his heart was in the right place, because of the lack of signings coming, no manager in and the start we had it took something a bit different to regain some belief and it came almost instantly with Keane's appointment.

People are far too quick to dismiss what he achieved on arriving and forget just how much of a low ebb we were at. Months prior to his arrival we had protests at the games and were in the process of setting a new lowest points total with the worst squad I can remember us having. Weeks prior we were losing regularly in the Championship with no proper manager and out of the cup to Bury. I think we would have stood every chance of dropping another division if we'd got that appointment wrong. Keane not only turned it around but became the first manager to ever get us back up at the first attempt.....and it was exciting to boot. I loved that season from the point Keane showed up, it was incredible.

He did a decent job in keeping a poor squad in the PL in his first season and agree entirely that he lost his way out of frustration at not being able to bring in the players he wanted and instead going after mercenaries. He did waste a lot of money on McCartney, Anton etc.....but prior to getting them in he'd tried and failed to get the likes of Baines, Chielini and Forlan.....imagine where we might have ended up if we could have attracted those players.