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PGMOL apologise to Forest

Matnab said:
I kind of get your point re strict liability for handball but a ricochet that pops up off another player close range and hits an arm mid running motion seems unfair. I'd definitely scrap penalties for incidents that don't amount to dogso.
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It wouldn't be ideal, it would be harsh in many cases, but overall, far fairer to the league. When you open yourself up to "intent" at that pace, you're asking for trouble, which is what we get weekly.

The other open-ended stuff as well, like excessive force, such as a lunge, was Tim Iroegbunam's tackle a lunge, yep, did it endanger Reinildo, I think so, so by the law, that's a red, by unwritten interpretation that I probably agree with, it's a yellow. Pick a lane.
 

Coeus said:
It works for me, we've already run the period of defenders putting their hands behind their backs.

It's not ideal, but it allows for no interpretation. Seems ridiculous to expect consistency when we can't make rules anywhere near straightforward.
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We've run the period and it wasn't good. We don't want to see a return to it.
 
Coeus said:
It wouldn't be ideal, it would be harsh in many cases, but overall, far fairer to the league. When you open yourself up to "intent" at that pace, you're asking for trouble, which is what we get weekly.

The other open-ended stuff as well, like excessive force, such as a lunge, was Tim Iroegbunam's tackle a lunge, yep, did it endanger Reinildo, I think so, so by the law, that's a red, by unwritten interpretation that I probably agree with, it's a yellow. Pick a lane.
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That's the problem. 'Holding', 'excessive force', 'endangering an opponent' etc all require a bar and you'll always get 50/50 split on loads of decisions that fall close either side. You can't make the laws of the game objective. It's why we have the mess with 'holding' in the box. Refs have simply stopped giving it because the first one that does will be called out for being inconsistent. I'd have a panel of 5 making decisions from the var room and go with majority call on all big decisions. Fans need to deal with similar incidents receiving different judgements. It's the way it always used to be. Throwing a net over all vaguely similar decisions and demanding they all get the same verdict is the problem.
 
ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
This! It's not the laws of the game at fault, it's the ref but then he's at a screen under so much pressure unlike someone who is in VAR that can look at it in closer detail in a less hostile environment.

When you see this angle (zoomed in on MOTD), he's got his arm out wide initially and as it hits him, his arm comes down and back as he brings it in towards his body and he basically traps the ball and the ball drops to the deck.

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Ffs man. Wow
 
Matnab said:
That's the problem. 'Holding', 'excessive force', 'endangering an opponent' etc all require a bar and you'll always get 50/50 split on loads of decisions that fall close either side. You can't make the laws of the game objective. It's why we have the mess with 'holding' in the box. Refs have simply stopped giving it because the first one that does will be called out for being inconsistent. I'd have a panel of 5 making decisions from the var room and go with majority call on all big decisions. Fans need to deal with similar incidents receiving different judgements. It's the way it always used to be. Throwing a net over all vaguely similar decisions and demanding they all get the same verdict is the problem.
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I can't allow for rules being analysed in the manner they are now and getting different outcomes, but im sure there is a reason for that though.

When a ref was by himself, split second to make a decision, I understand human error, no problem. I cannot get away with open-ended rules to be interpreted on a case-by-case basis by folk who have different leanings to those that are doing it elsewhere in the country.

I think the mess we have in the box is entirely of their own making, would it have stopped if they continued to ref it as they did that Brentford game, Im pretty sure it would. You're holding, or you are not. It cannot be left up to a group of folk making decisions on merit, well, it can and is, it's just far from my preference.
Thatheaderman said:
Ffs man. Wow
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He caught the ball, but did he mean to catch it?
 
Matnab said:
Do you think the player was deliberately trying to gain an advantage by using their arm?
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This seems the best solution to me, but as you say they won't do that without adding a list of permutations to consider - which will end up muddying the water and bringing about more subjectivity.
 
ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
This! It's not the laws of the game at fault, it's the ref but then he's at a screen under so much pressure unlike someone who is in VAR that can look at it in closer detail in a less hostile environment.

When you see this angle (zoomed in on MOTD), he's got his arm out wide initially and as it hits him, his arm comes down and back as he brings it in towards his body and he basically traps the ball and the ball drops to the deck.

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Looked like handball live, looked like handball on the replays, looks like handball on your slowed down gif

An extraordinary decision
 
DonaldDownTheWing said:
For not ruling out Cunha’s goal after Mbuemo’s hand ball.

It’s just ridiculous isn’t it? How can the ref miss it in real time, have his mate say “you might want to look at this”, watch a replay, and still get it wrong?

If the people refereeing the game don’t know the rules, what are they doing there in the first place?
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it's because they are incompetent. It was never a penalty and apologies after the game are worthless. It was clear as day Mbuemo seemed to trap the ball with his arm, the VAR guys thought so. All of these referees sit and are assessed on actual practice games at St George's Park, read the same rule book, are instructed in live games as to what's correct or wrong and yet still all of them interperate the rules differently..
 
DonaldDownTheWing said:
For not ruling out Cunha’s goal after Mbuemo’s hand ball.

It’s just ridiculous isn’t it? How can the ref miss it in real time, have his mate say “you might want to look at this”, watch a replay, and still get it wrong?

If the people refereeing the game don’t know the rules, what are they doing there in the first place?
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Ah that’s lovely of them, sorted
 
woodlebert said:
Looked like handball live, looked like handball on the replays, looks like handball on your slowed down gif

An extraordinary decision
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I posted that gif on purpose to be fair as it looks the worst of the various angles. Slowed down from another angle I can possibly see why the ref went against VAR. This is bearing in mind that overall fans don't want certain handballs stopping goals and the ref will be aware of this so he will be under pressure.

In this gif I can see the ball bounce up off his thigh into his arm and that kills the ball dead. I think he's trying to kill the ball as his arms move in sync but he's got the path of the ball wrong, rather than deliberately trying to handle it.

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I'm not sure if it's the Forest defender that gets a slight touch on it to slightly change the path. No doubt the Man Utd fans will think it's 'accidental' and I guess the ref has thought that way too for some reason. Though it's also clear that he gained a big advantage from it even if accidental as the ball would have gone away from him, so ignoring the current laws, it's got to handball IMO or if they ever change the laws.

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NGPost said:
You could say both have cost us against wolves and man utd, don't suppose we will get an apology
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And Everton at home and Bournemouth away as well. Around another 8 points with those dodgy decisions. Maybe got away with one O'Nein at Leeds springs to mind, but can't think of any others.
 
Matnab said:
So you'd be applying an awful rule that goes against the spirit of the game for the sake of objectivity. I'm not knocking you, in fact it's pretty prescient as I reckon we'll end up there.

One simple question for the ref....

Do you think the player was deliberately trying to gain an advantage by using their arm?

Let them make the judgement without daft legislative checklists like 'arm away from body', ' distance from the ball', 'bigger silhouette etc. I genuinely think they'd make fairer decisions if they weren't restricted by daft attempts to satisfy a misguided idea of being consistent. People need to realise that two fairly similar incidents can deserve different judgements.
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I agree. They need to revert to the original rule and make a decision as to whether they think it was deliberate hand ball, or not. Why make it so complicated with any other questions?
 
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