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Newcastle thread Oct and Nov 2020

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The Fish said:
Depends what you want from football, I guess? I want to see chances created, goals scored, good passing play, clean sheets, and tackles. Last season, Bruce's Newcastle were among thee lowest (if not the lowest) in the league for all of those things.

The football under Benitez in the Premier League wasn't the cavalier, gung-ho football of Keegan, or even Robson. It was negative, pragmatic and built on a solid defence, if that's not your bag, then fair dos, but Bruce's football was both negative and shit.

I don't think that's what the argument is about. I think it's about; Newcastle fans supported Benitez, therefore he's overrated & Newcastle fans criticise Bruce, therefore he's underrated.

I've tried to move on from the comparisons between the managers, I really have. So lets be clear; Bruce isn't a good football manager because he doesn't restrict his flair players with pesky things like tactics and coaching. That makes him a bad manager. It's fine when we win, but more often than not we've looked clueless defensively, have no control in the middle, and toothless up front. Last season we were terrible and if football was played on a spreadsheet we would have been relegated.

I think making your team easy to beat to accommodate attacking flair is tactically inept. Especially when you don't set the team up to get the most out of that available attacking flair. "Give it to Maxi" isn't a tactic, it's a Hail Mary. If you want to throw caution to the wind, fine but then get more players up the pitch to give ASM some support. It's a criticism that's followed Bruce around, his teams lack a defining characteristic, they're not defensively solid, they're not interested in controlling possession, they're not dangerous up front.
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Or alternatively there's more than one way to accumulate points and win games. You have a manager where organisation and structure is everything. Rafa's way. You have a manager who isn't as reliant on that but is willing to select and not restrict players like ASM, Almiron, Shelvey on the basis that they will undoubtedly get more convincing beatings but will win enough games because of the qualities they have. Option B currently gains NUFC more points per game in this division and does better for you in the cups. No argument.
 

rentaghost said:
Or alternatively there's more than one way to accumulate points and win games. You have a manager where organisation and structure is everything. Rafa's way. You have a manager who isn't as reliant on that but is willing to select and not restrict players like ASM, Almiron, Shelvey on the basis that they will undoubtedly get more convincing beatings but will win enough games because of the qualities they have. Option B currently gains NUFC more points per game in this division and does better for you in the cups. No argument.
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You keep making out like Bruce's approach is a choice, a carefully considered strategy. It's not. Last season we created fewer chances, scored fewer goals, conceded more chances, put on less pressure, than all but a couple of teams in the league. It's unsustainable. Lose the game against Man Utd, and RB and SB are level on PpG, lose the subsequent games against Wolves and Everton and he's behind. What will your defence of Bruce be then? If it is based on beating the Points per Game in the Premier League of Benitez, then you're not looking at the football, you're just looking at the points tally. Ignoring all the myriad contextual differences.

Purely talking about Bruce's tenure, his football is usually poor, it's way too reliant on moments of brilliance from Saint Maximin, or the 'keeper. It's not sustainable. It's been a criticism of him for years, even at Sunderland there were the same issues.
 
mr chuckles said:
Contracts mean nowt these days if a big club comes in for him his head will turn and he'll be off
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You are both right and wrong.

Wrong that it means nothing - the length means we can dictate a bigger fee but right in the fact if someone bigger wants him, he's gone.
 
mag in peace said:
You are both right and wrong.

Wrong that it means nothing - the length means we can dictate a bigger fee but right in the fact if someone bigger wants him, he's gone.
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Unless his agent has put in a set fee buy out clause if say a champions League club come in for him in the future
 
The Fish said:
You keep making out like Bruce's approach is a choice, a carefully considered strategy. It's not. Last season we created fewer chances, scored fewer goals, conceded more chances, put on less pressure, than all but a couple of teams in the league. It's unsustainable. Lose the game against Man Utd, and RB and SB are level on PpG, lose the subsequent games against Wolves and Everton and he's behind. What will your defence of Bruce be then? If it is based on beating the Points per Game in the Premier League of Benitez, then you're not looking at the football, you're just looking at the points tally. Ignoring all the myriad contextual differences.

Purely talking about Bruce's tenure, his football is usually poor, it's way too reliant on moments of brilliance from Saint Maximin, or the 'keeper. It's not sustainable. It's been a criticism of him for years, even at Sunderland there were the same issues.
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If Rafa cant get more PPG than a manager that creates no chances, doesn't score goals, concedes more chances, puts on less pressure then what does that actually say about the job Rafa did at Newcastle? Also whether Bruce is narrowly ahead, further ahead, level or narrowly behind after those games is neither here nor there. His performance is broadly the same as Rafa's on an increasingly large sample that nullifies all of the stats you use to suggest its all down to luck. Bruce is as moderate a manager as you can get following on from a manager that for NUFC was as moderate as you can get.
 
Qwerty said:
It'll be 80m or something like that if they've given him a wage increase.
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Big Mike likes this
rentaghost said:
If Rafa cant get more PPG than a manager that creates no chances, doesn't score goals, concedes more chances, puts on less pressure then what does that actually say about the job Rafa did at Newcastle? Also whether Bruce is narrowly ahead, further ahead, level or narrowly behind after those games is neither here nor there. His performance is broadly the same as Rafa's on an increasingly large sample that nullifies all of the stats you use to suggest its all down to luck. Bruce is as moderate a manager as you can get following on from a manager that for NUFC was as moderate as you can get.
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Spot on
 
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The Fish said:
:lol: With that attacking line up? You'd want to f***ing hope he would better the points return.

The point, which has always been my point, is that Steve Bruce isn't a good football manager and no other Premier League club would have given him a job.
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Based on the job he’s currently doing with us, he’d get another premier league job no bother.
The Fish said:
Dunno, plenty of managers talk up the city and whatnot. More to it than just that. Have to produce on the pitch, that's why we didn't take to Dalglish, Gullit, Souness, Allardyce, McClaren. Benitez played to the crowd, but he delivered and, in my opinion, could have delivered more if he'd been given more control.

But he's gone now and we're stuck with Steve f***ing Bruce.
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sorry, but he ‘delivered’ nothing of note at all.
 
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Binxy said:
He's tied down your best player to a long term deal and you'll be able to double your money down the line.

Or would you rather he was a flop to make the net spend numbers look good?
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It’s good sound business, I’m agreeing. Doesn’t make him a good owner though in my opinion.
 
mad cyril said:
Based on the job he’s currently doing with us, he’d get another premier league job no bother.


sorry, but he ‘delivered’ nothing of note at all.
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I've just read that 'Rafa delivered' line. I can't quite believe he typed it. What has he delivered that the other havent? One relegation for sure, he managed to deliver that and as things stand hes managed to deliver a worse PPG and cup performances than Steve f***ing Bruce.
 
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