Newcastle thread Oct and Nov 2020

[mad cyril]

I've just read that 'Rafa delivered' line. I can't quite believe he typed it. What has he delivered that the other havent? One relegation for sure, he managed to deliver that and as things stand hes managed to deliver a worse PPG and cup performances than Steve f***ing Bruce.

He feeded the high self entitlement that is unfortunately prevalent in a lot of our fan base.
Thankfully, the number of people blinded by Benitez are dwindling. The few who remain obsessed with him now cling onto any stat they can pull out to justify themselves. Even weirder there are a number who don’t want us to win just do they can say ‘i told you so’

the biggest hipocricy if it all, is that the same people who moan about stats, style of play etc were the same people who once proclaimed
‘We don’t deserve a team that wins only one that trys’

 

[Sabre Mag]

He feeded the high self entitlement that is unfortunately prevalent in a lot of our fan base.
Thankfully, the number of people blinded by Benitez are dwindling. The few who remain obsessed with him now cling onto any stat they can pull out to justify themselves. Even weirder there are a number who don’t want us to win just do they can say ‘i told you so’

the biggest hipocricy if it all, is that the same people who moan about stats, style of play etc were the same people who once proclaimed
‘We don’t deserve a team that wins only one that trys’

You know Cyril I get a lot of what you say but where was the trying against Brighton mate? Where was the trying in a number of games last season and a few in this?

I’m not even wanting to get into a Rafa, Bruce debate, I guess I’m just trying (haha) to explain that it is those none performances that cause me so much worry as it’s not sustainable long term to perform like that and get away with it forever. And in my opinion there were many less of those types of performances under Benitez. That’s what I see when I watch.

 

[RokerRoarer]

If betting (and losing) has taught me anything, it's that no match is a sure thing, especially in English football. Wouldn't be too surprised if a lower league side turn them over.

 

[mad cyril]

You know Cyril I get a lot of what you say but where was the trying against Brighton mate? Where was the trying in a number of games last season and a few in this?

I’m not even wanting to get into a Rafa, Bruce debate, I guess I’m just trying (haha) to explain that it is those none performances that cause me so much worry as it’s not sustainable long term to perform like that and get away with it forever. And in my opinion there were many less of those types of performances under Benitez. That’s what I see when I watch.

There’s been terrible performances under Bruce, nobody can deny that. Likewise there was terrible performances under Benitez. My unwavering opinion is that The job currently being done by Bruce is no better or worse than his predecessor.

it’s the fact that when we are terrible now it’s Bruce’s fault, but terrible under RB was Ashley’s fault that sticks in my throat.

 

[The Fish]

If Rafa cant get more PPG than a manager that creates no chances, doesn't score goals, concedes more chances, puts on less pressure then what does that actually say about the job Rafa did at Newcastle? Also whether Bruce is narrowly ahead, further ahead, level or narrowly behind after those games is neither here nor there. His performance is broadly the same as Rafa's on an increasingly large sample that nullifies all of the stats you use to suggest its all down to luck. Bruce is as moderate a manager as you can get following on from a manager that for NUFC was as moderate as you can get.

I'm honestly trying to get away from the comparisons, but it's silly to suggest Bruce and Benitez did broadly the same jobs. You're basing it solely on PpG in the Premier League which means you're ignoring the quality of the squad, the standard of football, the nature of the league in that particular season, etc. The only reason I can see for being so myopic is because to broaden it out would knacker your argument. The minute you look at the bigger picture, your position is untenable.

Throughout his career Bruce has been criticised for the football his team plays, he hasn't improved. He's still blaming everything on injuries (injury crises appear to happen to his teams a lot). Forget about how RB did in a different season with different players against different opposition, look purely at Bruce and tell me he's a manager that could take a bottom half team and make them any better?

There’s been terrible performances under Bruce, nobody can deny that. Likewise there was terrible performances under Benitez. My unwavering opinion is that The job currently being done by Bruce is no better or worse than his predecessor.

it’s the fact that when we are terrible now it’s Bruce’s fault, but terrible under RB was Ashley’s fault that sticks in my throat.

Ashley has to take the blame for where we are vs where we were before him. So bad performances on the pitch ultimately come back to his ownership; appointing the wrong coaches, signing off on a broken transfer strategy, etc. However the manager has to take the blame if, even despite all of that, they can't at least play some decent football.

Ashley-manager-players. That's the order of blame and it was that under Allardyce, Keegan, Kinnear, Shearer, Hughton, Pardew, Carver, McClaren, Benitez and now Bruce.

 

[rentaghost]

I'm honestly trying to get away from the comparisons, but it's silly to suggest Bruce and Benitez did broadly the same jobs. You're basing it solely on PpG in the Premier League which means you're ignoring the quality of the squad, the standard of football, the nature of the league in that particular season, etc. The only reason I can see for being so myopic is because to broaden it out would knacker your argument. The minute you look at the bigger picture, your position is untenable.

Throughout his career Bruce has been criticised for the football his team plays, he hasn't improved. He's still blaming everything on injuries (injury crises appear to happen to his teams a lot). Forget about how RB did in a different season with different players against different opposition, look purely at Bruce and tell me he's a manager that could take a bottom half team and make them any better?

Ashley has to take the blame for where we are vs where we were before him. So bad performances on the pitch ultimately come back to his ownership; appointing the wrong coaches, signing off on a broken transfer strategy, etc. However the manager has to take the blame if, even despite all of that, they can't at least play some decent football.

Ashley-manager-players. That's the order of blame and it was that under Allardyce, Keegan, Kinnear, Shearer, Hughton, Pardew, Carver, McClaren, Benitez and now Bruce.

It's true i'm not arguing the quality of the football as a lot of it is subjective. There are many Newcastle fans on here and who I know who prefer seeing the likes of ASM given free reign and less defensive responsibility of the likes of Shelvey and Almiron rather than a more pragmatic approach that get similar to worse results. Some like to see all 3 of them selected in the same team even if it has its downsides. I'm not ignoring the quality of the squad though as one manager had Rondon and Perez and the other Joelinton and one manager wouldnt have touched ASM with a bargepole

 

[mr chuckles]

There’s been terrible performances under Bruce, nobody can deny that. Likewise there was terrible performances under Benitez. My unwavering opinion is that The job currently being done by Bruce is no better or worse than his predecessor.

it’s the fact that when we are terrible now it’s Bruce’s fault, but terrible under RB was Ashley’s fault that sticks in my throat.

Sensible and honest

 

[The Fish]

It's true i'm not arguing the quality of the football as a lot of it is subjective. There are many Newcastle fans on here and who I know who prefer seeing the likes of ASM given free reign and less defensive responsibility of the likes of Shelvey and Almiron rather than a more pragmatic approach that get similar to worse results. Some like to see all 3 of them selected in the same team even if it has its downsides. I'm not ignoring the quality of the squad though as one manager had Rondon and Perez and the other Joelinton and one manager wouldnt have touched ASM with a bargepole

I love seeing Saint Maximin turning defenders inside out and if we controlled the ball we could do that more. If we played further up the pitch we could get him on the ball in better positions, more often. I think most Newcastle fans would feel the same. But Bruce isn't doing that. There's no 'style' of play, it's a mess. A mess that means that ASM and the 'keepers have to be brilliant if we're to get anything from a game, or the opposition have to be having a shitter (West Ham/Burnley).

If we were better organised and lost ASM to injury I'd be more confident of getting results. As it is, if our French winger gets crocked, we're hoping that his replacement can be similarly individually brilliant.

 

[mr chuckles]

I love seeing Saint Maximin turning defenders inside out and if we controlled the ball we could do that more. If we played further up the pitch we could get him on the ball in better positions, more often. I think most Newcastle fans would feel the same. But Bruce isn't doing that. There's no 'style' of play, it's a mess. A mess that means that ASM and the 'keepers have to be brilliant if we're to get anything from a game, or the opposition have to be having a shitter (West Ham/Burnley).

If we were better organised and lost ASM to injury I'd be more confident of getting results. As it is, if our French winger gets crocked, we're hoping that his replacement can be similarly individually brilliant.

Football management is so easy have you ever thought of taking it up ?

 

[Sabre Mag]

There’s been terrible performances under Bruce, nobody can deny that. Likewise there was terrible performances under Benitez. My unwavering opinion is that The job currently being done by Bruce is no better or worse than his predecessor.

it’s the fact that when we are terrible now it’s Bruce’s fault, but terrible under RB was Ashley’s fault that sticks in my throat.

That’s not how it worked for me. I remember one particular home game (can’t remember who maybe Brighton) under RB where he didn’t attack and we sat in the pub after as a group hammering him and being frustrated at his negative approach. However, my unwavering belief is that Rafa is 100 times the manager Bruce has been or ever will be. No contest. And I think whats ignored is that the last 6 months under RB we were brilliant to watch, we played some really really good stuff and the team was clicking.

I think Bruce is a good bloke, but wouldn’t have got another premier league job IMO.

 

[mr chuckles]

That’s not how it worked for me. I remember one particular home game (can’t remember who maybe Brighton) under RB where he didn’t attack and we sat in the pub after as a group hammering him and being frustrated at his negative approach. However, my unwavering belief is that Rafa is 100 times the manager Bruce has been or ever will be. No contest. And I think whats ignored is that the last 6 months under RB we were brilliant to watch, we played some really really good stuff and the team was clicking.

I think Bruce is a good bloke, but wouldn’t have got another premier league job IMO.

Brilliant to watch dear me

 

[mad cyril]

That’s not how it worked for me. I remember one particular home game (can’t remember who maybe Brighton) under RB where he didn’t attack and we sat in the pub after as a group hammering him and being frustrated at his negative approach. However, my unwavering belief is that Rafa is 100 times the manager Bruce has been or ever will be. No contest. And I think whats ignored is that the last 6 months under RB we were brilliant to watch, we played some really really good stuff and the team was clicking.

I think Bruce is a good bloke, but wouldn’t have got another premier league job IMO.

Benitez CV is in a different league to Bruce but I always maintain that it doesn’t matter if it’s player or manager, you should only be judged on your time at your own club.
kenny Dalglish won the league with different clubs but didn’t do much with us, Michael Owen another prime example.

People laud Benitez for what he did elsewhere not what he did with us, that’s undeniable.

Yes, at the time Bruce would have struggled to get another club but he’d get one now no problem.

 

[rentaghost]

I love seeing Saint Maximin turning defenders inside out and if we controlled the ball we could do that more. If we played further up the pitch we could get him on the ball in better positions, more often. I think most Newcastle fans would feel the same. But Bruce isn't doing that. There's no 'style' of play, it's a mess. A mess that means that ASM and the 'keepers have to be brilliant if we're to get anything from a game, or the opposition have to be having a shitter (West Ham/Burnley).

If we were better organised and lost ASM to injury I'd be more confident of getting results. As it is, if our French winger gets crocked, we're hoping that his replacement can be similarly individually brilliant.

I'm glad you do. One manager puts him out of the football pitch the other wouldn't take the risk. Two different managers both achieving the same results (if i'm being generous) over a sustained period of time. I can even understand you having a preference for the job one has done over the other but the narrative that one was fantastic for you and the other is an utterly shite dinosaur is completely ridiculous.

 

[Sabre Mag]

Brilliant to watch dear me

You may laugh, and I’m not sure if you watched much of us in that time, but we actually were. Quick on the counter, dangerous, Perez and Rondon linking up and scoring some great goals. One particular performance away at Leicester where we turned them over, we were really good to watch.

Bruce has and always will be a very limited manager. He’s a good bloke and he’s doing better then I expected. I hope he can keep it going, but not sure how far he can take us

 

[The Fish]

Football management is so easy have you ever thought of taking it up ?

Never said it was easy, just that there's plenty of managers who're capable of playing better football than Steve Bruce.

Benitez CV is in a different league to Bruce but I always maintain that it doesn’t matter if it’s player or manager, you should only be judged on your time at your own club.
kenny Dalglish won the league with different clubs but didn’t do much with us, Michael Owen another prime example.

People laud Benitez for what he did elsewhere not what he did with us, that’s undeniable.

Yes, at the time Bruce would have struggled to get another club but he’d get one now no problem.

I think you're downplaying what RB did at Newcastle. He inherited a mess, overhauled the squad to bring immediate and automatic promotion, turned the mess into a well-drilled organised committed squad, built on that to get 44, then 45 points in the Premier League. His talk was always of ambition, and striving to be the best Newcastle we could be, long term aims were top half finishes.

What Premier League job would Bruce get "No problem" ?

I'm glad you do. One manager puts him out of the football pitch the other wouldn't take the risk. Two different managers both achieving the same results (if i'm being generous) over a sustained period of time. I can even understand you having a preference for the job one has done over the other but the narrative that one was fantastic for you and the other is an utterly shite dinosaur is completely ridiculous.

Hang on, Bruce is a footballing dinosaur and his football is shit. How he got 44pts last season is a f***ing bizarre quirk of football. It's not ridiculous to say that. It's backed up by stats and by, y'know, watching the football with your own eyes.

Bruce exceeded expectations by not getting us relegated, and it's hard to argue that we deserved to stay up based on the football we played. I'm not going to give him credit for being lucky.

 

[mad cyril]

Never said it was easy, just that there's plenty of managers who're capable of playing better football than Steve Bruce.

I think you're downplaying what RB did at Newcastle. He inherited a mess, overhauled the squad to bring immediate and automatic promotion, turned the mess into a well-drilled organised committed squad, built on that to get 44, then 45 points in the Premier League. His talk was always of ambition, and striving to be the best Newcastle we could be, long term aims were top half finishes.

What Premier League job would Bruce get "No problem" ?

mate the thing is you’re never going to accept any constructive criticism of Benitez so no matter what anybody says you’re not going to take it on board. That’s entirely your opinion of course.
Likewise, you’re never going to be able to give Bruce any credit either despite the Ok job he has done and continues to do. Again that’s up to you.
I always ask so I’ll ask you also, despite comfortable mid season finishes, good cups runs and bringing good players, what exactly does he have to do for you to admit he’s doing ok ?

 

[The Fish]

mate the thing is you’re never going to accept any constructive criticism of Benitez so no matter what anybody says you’re not going to take it on board. That’s entirely your opinion of course.
Likewise, you’re never going to be able to give Bruce any credit either despite the Ok job he has done and continues to do. Again that’s up to you.
I always ask so I’ll ask you also, despite comfortable mid season finishes, good cups runs and bringing good players, what exactly does he have to do for you to admit he’s doing ok ?

I do accept criticism of Benitez. He's too slow to make subs, he rarely strays from the defensive mentality, the players didn't have the license to be more expressive on the pitch, he appears too confrontational with owners which ultimately leads to neither side being happy.

I give credit to Bruce when it's due, he's got some players enjoying their football, he gives freedom to players, he kept us up and he seems like a nice bloke.

Bruce would have to get us playing good football (whatever style it is; defensive, controlling, attacking, counter, whatever), he'd have to stop bringing players back too early and thus adding to the injury problems, he'd have to stop having favourites (Shelvey e.g.).

I ask again, what Premier League job would he get "No problem"? None of the traditional top 6 obviously, not Everton, Leicester, Southampton, West Ham, Wolves. Not Brighton, Burnley, Leeds, Palace, Sheffield, Villa. So who? Fulham? West Brom?

 

[rentaghost]

Never said it was easy, just that there's plenty of managers who're capable of playing better football than Steve Bruce.

I think you're downplaying what RB did at Newcastle. He inherited a mess, overhauled the squad to bring immediate and automatic promotion, turned the mess into a well-drilled organised committed squad, built on that to get 44, then 45 points in the Premier League. His talk was always of ambition, and striving to be the best Newcastle we could be, long term aims were top half finishes.

What Premier League job would Bruce get "No problem" ?

Hang on, Bruce is a footballing dinosaur and his football is shit. How he got 44pts last season is a f***ing bizarre quirk of football. It's not ridiculous to say that. It's backed up by stats and by, y'know, watching the football with your own eyes.

Bruce exceeded expectations by not getting us relegated, and it's hard to argue that we deserved to stay up based on the football we played. I'm not going to give him credit for being lucky.

Borderline mental. He inherited a squad of players that were nowhere near relegation standard and many a manager has turned around a far weaker squad of players and survived with them. At that time he spent more money than anyone in history of the second tier and had players at that level that had he not gone up it would have been an absolute disgrace. And of course during his time at NUFC he has a worse record in both league and cups than Steve f***ing Bruce. Some legacy.

 

[mad cyril]

I do accept criticism of Benitez. He's too slow to make subs, he rarely strays from the defensive mentality, the players didn't have the license to be more expressive on the pitch, he appears too confrontational with owners which ultimately leads to neither side being happy.

I give credit to Bruce when it's due, he's got some players enjoying their football, he gives freedom to players, he kept us up and he seems like a nice bloke.

Bruce would have to get us playing good football (whatever style it is; defensive, controlling, attacking, counter, whatever), he'd have to stop bringing players back too early and thus adding to the injury problems, he'd have to stop having favourites (Shelvey e.g.).

I ask again, what Premier League job would he get "No problem"? None of the traditional top 6 obviously, not Everton, Leicester, Southampton, West Ham, Wolves. Not Brighton, Burnley, Leeds, Palace, Sheffield, Villa. So who? Fulham? West Brom?

yeah, the clubs struggling at the bottom would all take Bruce if they could. Fulham, Burnley, West Brom could all do a lot worse. English managers who comfortably keep their club up are at a premium.

 

[The Fish]

Borderline mental. He inherited a squad of players that were nowhere near relegation standard and many a manager has turned around a far weaker squad of players and survived with them. At that time he spent more money than anyone in history of the second tier and had players at that level that had he not gone up it would have been an absolute disgrace. And of course during his time at NUFC he has a worse record in both league and cups than Steve f***ing Bruce. Some legacy.

You keep doing this mate. Blaming only Benitez for the relegation, ignoring McClaren, ignoring that his PpG was better than other managers who managed to survive in similar situations in different seasons. You state he spent more money than anyone else, which is flat out false as Aston Villa(£77m) outspent Newcastle(£57m) in that very season (Villa managed by Steve Bruce to 13th, no less). You keep bringing up the cup runs as if beating Rochdale (after a replay), Oxford (after a replay), Morcambe and Newport is some kind of high bar. Especially when you look at the line-ups put out in the games vs the line-ups put out by Benitez.

You state he has a worse record in the league, but in full seasons he either beat the final position , or beat the points return. So in what way is Bruce outperforming him in the League? More goals? Nope. Fewer conceded? Nope. More possession? Nope.

yeah, the clubs struggling at the bottom would all take Bruce if they could. Fulham, Burnley, West Brom could all do a lot worse. English managers who comfortably keep their club up are at a premium.

Like shite. Burnley wouldn't trade their manager who's got them top half twice on a shoestring for a bloke who couldn't get Aston Villa promoted from the Championship with the biggest budget in that league ever.
Fulham and West Brom might give him a go, possibly,maybe, certainly wouldn't be "No problem". But like I say, Steve Bruce isn't anyone's first choice. Reports say he was 11th choice for us!

and if the only teams in the league that would maybe give him the gig are the ones in the relegation mire, what the fuck does that tell you about him?