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Greenwood's future

PTR said:
Just been reading this on BBC.

Thing is, that recording could be in any context. I'm not going to play guessing games, but I can think of 2 perfectly plausible reasons immediately.

He wasn't convicted of any crime and the lass didn't even want to press charges.
But for all we know, it could have been dodgy as fuck and the lass just wanted to move on
Truth is, we have no real idea.
Question is, should this be the end of his career? In the eyes of the people who actually have all the facts, he's not done anything illegal. So who are we to judge?
Click to expand...

Mason: Move your f***ing legs up!

Harriet: No! I don't want to have sex!

M: I don't give a fuck what you want, you little shit.

H: Mason!

M: Shut up. Stop talking to me. Stop!

H: Stop putting your dick near me.

M: I'm going to fuck you, you twat!

H: I don't want to have sex with you!

M: I don't care if you don't want f***ing sex with me, do you hear me?

H: Why do you have to do this, though?

M: Cause I asked you politely and you wouldn't do it!

H: (Inaudible. Something about sex with other people?)

M: I asked you politely and you wouldn't do it so what else do you want me to do?

H: Then go and fuck someone else.

M: I don't want to fuck someone else!

H: You do.

M: No I don't.

M: Push me again one more time and watch what happens to you.

H: No.

M: Well, you will actually.
 
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Another Everton Fan said:
Mason: Move your f***ing legs up!

Harriet: No! I don't want to have sex!

M: I don't give a fuck what you want, you little shit.

H: Mason!

M: Shut up. Stop talking to me. Stop!

H: Stop putting your dick near me.

M: I'm going to fuck you, you twat!

H: I don't want to have sex with you!

M: I don't care if you don't want f***ing sex with me, do you hear me?

H: Why do you have to do this, though?

M: Cause I asked you politely and you wouldn't do it!

H: (Inaudible. Something about sex with other people?)

M: I asked you politely and you wouldn't do it so what else do you want me to do?

H: Then go and fuck someone else.

M: I don't want to fuck someone else!

H: You do.

M: No I don't.

M: Push me again one more time and watch what happens to you.

H: No.

M: Well, you will actually.
Click to expand...
That sounds horrendous.
But if its not out of context, and "real" then that's flat out rape. Which he's been cleared of.

So I'm confused.
 
Another Everton Fan said:
Mason: Move your f***ing legs up!

Harriet: No! I don't want to have sex!

M: I don't give a fuck what you want, you little shit.

H: Mason!

M: Shut up. Stop talking to me. Stop!

H: Stop putting your dick near me.

M: I'm going to fuck you, you twat!

H: I don't want to have sex with you!

M: I don't care if you don't want f***ing sex with me, do you hear me?

H: Why do you have to do this, though?

M: Cause I asked you politely and you wouldn't do it!

H: (Inaudible. Something about sex with other people?)

M: I asked you politely and you wouldn't do it so what else do you want me to do?

H: Then go and fuck someone else.

M: I don't want to fuck someone else!

H: You do.

M: No I don't.

M: Push me again one more time and watch what happens to you.

H: No.

M: Well, you will actually.
Click to expand...
Had she not leaked this audio he’d have gotten away with it and would have returned to the clubs day to day duties no problem
 
PTR said:
That sounds horrendous.
But if its not out of context, and "real" then that's flat out rape. Which he's been cleared of.

So I'm confused.
Click to expand...
Are you daft? How has he been cleared?

Just because his statement said he has it doesn't make it true.

Who cleared him?
 
Mowgli said:
Are you daft? How has he been cleared?

Just because his statement said he has it doesn't make it true.

Who cleared him?
Click to expand...
The cps dropped all charges.
Does to new information being released

He's been cleared.

Hasn't he?
 
PTR said:
The cps dropped all charges.
Does to new information being released

He's been cleared.

Hasn't he?
Click to expand...
The CPS said there was “no longer a realistic prospect of conviction” after key witnesses withdrew their cooperation from the investigation. That is not being cleared.
 
Mowgli said:
No. Charges were dropped as a key witness dropped out. His girlfriend.

People not testifying is very different to being cleared
Click to expand...
"In this case a combination of the withdrawal of key witnesses and new material that came to light meant there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction"

Both things, then.
ClassicDom said:
He hasn’t been cleared of anything. He was never tried.
Click to expand...
Innocent until proven guilty though?
 
PTR said:
"In this case a combination of the withdrawal of key witnesses and new material that came to light meant there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction"

Both things, then.

Innocent until proven guilty though?
Click to expand...
He hasn’t been tried. “Not guilty” doesn’t mean “innocent”. Suggest you learn some law before talking things you don’t understand.
 
PTR said:
"In this case a combination of the withdrawal of key witnesses and new material that came to light meant there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction"

Both things, then.

Innocent until proven guilty though?
Click to expand...
None of that shows he was cleared. He was never tried on his actions to start with.

Innocent till proven guilty obviously applies from a legal point of view but Manchester United have done the right thing. Why would anybody want a person like this to be associated with them?
 
Mowgli said:
None of that shows he was cleared. He was never tried on his actions to start with.

Innocent till proven guilty obviously applies from a legal point of view but Manchester United have done the right thing. Why would anybody want a person like this to be associated with them?
Click to expand...
He wasn’t cleared of all - or any - charges. The charges were dropped. So Greenwood’s statement, which I assume was agreed with the club, is misleading.

The club statement: “we have concluded that the material uploaded does not paint the full picture and that Mason did not commit the offences for which he was originally charged”Careful language - do they mean he may have committed other offences? And did they get advice from a criminal lawyer - because the reports all say it was the club’s general counsel who provided the legal input.

Finally - reports that there are “no plans” for him to return after a loan. This seems to be hedging bets. It’s an odd situation.

They seem to have been willing to reintegrate him but have now changed their minds. There is an acceptance he made ‘mistakes’ but what do they/does he mean? If there is an alternative, innocent explanation for the information in the public domain the club could release it. If there isn’t, then why was the plan to reintegrate him?
 
ClassicDom said:
He hasn’t been tried. “Not guilty” doesn’t mean “innocent”. Suggest you learn some law before talking things you don’t understand.
Click to expand...
The cps said there was very little chance he'd be found guilty.
So if he'd gone you court he'd almost certainly have been found not guilty.
So much so, they didnt even bother with the trial.

That's effectively being cleared.

What else is there? Anyone who's arrested, charged then charges dropped are forever in a state of limbo?
No.
You are incident until proven guilty. Simple as that.
 
PTR said:
"In this case a combination of the withdrawal of key witnesses and new material that came to light meant there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction"

Both things, then.

Innocent until proven guilty though?
Click to expand...
What about Teflon don, does the same apply to him?
 
PTR said:
The cps said there was very little chance he'd be found guilty.
So if he'd gone you court he'd almost certainly have been found not guilty.
So much so, they didnt even bother with the trial.

That's effectively being cleared.

What else is there? Anyone who's arrested, charged then charges dropped are forever in a state of limbo?
No.
You are incident until proven guilty. Simple as that.
Click to expand...
There was very little chance he'd be found guilty AFTER the witness dropped out. They were confident of a guilty charge before that and that's why they pushed it.

'Effectively being cleared':lol: by that logic if you pay off your victims before court with a settlement you're effectively cleared aswell then?
 
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It's astounding how many people fail to understand simple concepts about how the law works in this country. Without the victim in a case such as this being willing to testify, there's simply no realistic chance of a conviction, so the police and CPS won't pursue. This is a million miles away from Greenwood's weaselly "cleared of all charges" in his statement, which has been disappointingly quoted without challenge by a lot of media sources and found its way into the general discussion as if it's a thing.

It's as if you see your neighbour regularly bray his missus all over, report it but she refuses to testify or make a statement. What do you do? Presume he must be innocent because he's not been convicted even though you witnessed it? We've all heard the audio, we've all seen her injuries, we all know what Mason Greenwood is.

"innocent until proven guilty" is a specific legal term applying to how the state treats alleged criminals, not a fact. As soon as you commit a crime you're guilty of it, it's up to the state to be able to prove it to make you guilty in a strictly legal sense which is extremely difficult to do in cases of domestic abuse.
 
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