Full body offside rule

[not spavin]

This wouldn't last more than 3 weekends of games in the Premier League. People would be moaning about a linesman's call being wrong. They don't allow any leeway even though it's a bit harder these days to run the line and their margin of error can be feet and yards sometimes.

The tech they have in place is semi automated which should be quite quick. There are times that it may take longer but it's always within a few inches of tolerance, unlike the distances we saw pre VAR.

I've explained in great detail about the current 5cm advantage attackers to give them some of the benefit of doubt for close decisions. Yet how many reading this post know it exists and where to look for it? There's plenty info in that post if you want to learn about it.

VARguments

Short memory I’ve not. The sort of complaints managers had a decade ago were the same as today: the penalty we should have got for a clear push in the box but a reluctance by a referee to give it for fear of influencing the game. Managers were never complaining vigorously about offsides where...

www.readytogo.net

If you grasp the basics of that post, you may realise that all this rage about a toenail offside is a bit pointless as the line has to be somewhere but at least some benefit of doubt is going to the attacker.

All this daylight rule is doing is shifting the line but completely changing the way defending would happen, it's a joke of a suggestion.


Not necessarily if teams just sit deeper rather than trying to play an offside line like they do now.

At least with a level offside line then the defender and attacker have a fair chance at getting to the ball.

It still assumes an accuracy that simply isn't there though.

Let's assume the mesh camera system is sufficient. There are still too many uncontrolled variables - the precise millisecond the ball was played, the exact millimetre between a shoulder and an arm, the billowing of fabric etc. It's always going to be interpretation - from defining where the lines are draw for the 5cm to where the infringement did / didn't happen.

And that interpretation is done under pressure - the VAR team prioritise speed over accuracy.

So it leaves you with two choices. Accept major mistakes without impeding the game, or impede the game in order to reduce the order of magnitude of those mistakes. In both cases mistakes still happen, so I don't see much of an argument for impeding the game.

It's possible that AI will eventually close the gap. Until then reviewing offside via VAR is a net negative for the game.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I'd prefer if they went back to if any player is offside, they all are whether the player is interfering with play or not. If a defender on the far side of the pitch is playing everyone onside, the goal stands even though he's not interfering with play, it should be the same the other way around.

It has never been the case that any player in an offside position is given offside. You wouldn't have a game if it was.

Suppose Burnley's keeper Dubravka goalkeeper has the ball at his feet. You man Brobbey comes to close him down, the defenders belt up to the half way line, and the keeper kicks it clear. As soon as the Ballard heads the clearance, play has to stop because Brobbey is offside.

The only reason that Brobbey is not offside under the current rules is that he isn't interfering with play.

 

[CatRyan]

I'd prefer if they went back to if any player is offside, they all are whether the player is interfering with play or not. If a defender on the far side of the pitch is playing everyone onside, the goal stands even though he's not interfering with play, it should be the same the other way around.

Agree with this, given the goalie, who the offside law is meant to effect the most, has to keep an eye on all the players around them, regardless of whether they are running back etc

 

[Zweiguys]

Scrap offsides all together and allow the keeper to handle the ball anywhere in his own half.

 

[tunstallhill]

Fuck lines , fuck VAR , fuck the technology.

If it must be reviewed you have a panel of 3 looking at the replay. The attacker is deemed on-side as a default position for every goal.

The panel get 3 seconds to look at the replay and they each have a big red button that they press if they think it's offside.

If after 3 seconds all three haven't pushed thier red button, then it's deemed too close to call and it's not offside

 

[Lewis_MLF]

No offside, no cards unless a limb is broken but a stern telling off will do.

Take the goalies off for the last 10 mins

 

[BingoBango]

Just wish they'd leave the game alone. I have no idea what the current offside thresholds are, not to mention what constitutes handball these days. Maybe they should focus first on training refs to understand what a push in the back looks like...

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

If it is still a part of your body that you can score a goal with that defines the lines for each player you are still going to have the same bun fight.

Var should just have a error bar/zone of tolerance where they don't intervene and just respect the on field decision. This would avoid the 'offside by a toe nail' scenarios that I think people just find instinctively wrong.

If your toe is outside of a reasonable zone of tolerance you are really a decent amount offside by that point so you shouldn't have much to complain about.

If only the masses realised it already exists and has done since 2021/22 season. It was 10cm with the manual lines and it's now 5cm with the automated stuff as it's more accurate than the manual method.

VARguments

Short memory I’ve not. The sort of complaints managers had a decade ago were the same as today: the penalty we should have got for a clear push in the box but a reluctance by a referee to give it for fear of influencing the game. Managers were never complaining vigorously about offsides where...

www.readytogo.net

All they had to do was extend this to 10cm again and it would given even more benefit of doubt to the attacker but physically keep the game fair between attacker and defender, unlike that stupid daylight rule suggestion that will just fuck the way the game is played.

It still assumes an accuracy that simply isn't there though.

Let's assume the mesh camera system is sufficient. There are still too many uncontrolled variables - the precise millisecond the ball was played, the exact millimetre between a shoulder and an arm, the billowing of fabric etc. It's always going to be interpretation - from defining where the lines are draw for the 5cm to where the infringement did / didn't happen.

And that interpretation is done under pressure - the VAR team prioritise speed over accuracy.

So it leaves you with two choices. Accept major mistakes without impeding the game, or impede the game in order to reduce the order of magnitude of those mistakes. In both cases mistakes still happen, so I don't see much of an argument for impeding the game.

It's possible that AI will eventually close the gap. Until then reviewing offside via VAR is a net negative for the game.

It's a consistent margin of error and most times, the true gap people are moaning about is small in most offside decisions. It's rare 2 players are running against each other. It's clear few know about the advantage the attackers already get, where to look for it, how big it is and how long it's been in place?

To start talking about milliseconds and millimetres is being too extreme. What they have now is a system that still has a small tolerance of a grey area. So there are 3 areas now, which is clear offside, clear onside and the grey area. The grey area has an advantage to the attacker so the millimetre debate is meaningless as it's already in favour of the attacker. Goals have been allowed this way also even though looking at the image, the look offside.

Many offsides are usually with a static or slow moving defender so the error of margin even with the current tech is minimal. There's also times when the frame before can show an attacker even more offside so the timing of the ball contact is irrelevant.

VAR also calls more offsides as the linesman won't flag after a goal unless he's 100% certain as it kills the celebrations. That's why you rarely see them flagging offside but VAR then corrects them. It's also why it's left to VAR to call it as it takes all the moaning away from the human at a personal level and puts it on the tech instead.

 

[stan the man]

It has never been the case that any player in an offside position is given offside. You wouldn't have a game if it was.

Suppose Burnley's keeper Dubravka goalkeeper has the ball at his feet. You man Brobbey comes to close him down, the defenders belt up to the half way line, and the keeper kicks it clear. As soon as the Ballard heads the clearance, play has to stop because Brobbey is offside.

The only reason that Brobbey is not offside under the current rules is that he isn't interfering with play.

That happened exactly as described against us at Old Trafford. Monty was being harassed by Denis Law but still managed to hoof the ball into the United half, it was headed straight back to Law who was 25 yards offside..... Ref played on and he scored

* I'm still fuming over it

 

[Hyltons finest]

He doesn’t half come up with some utter shite rules Wenger

 

[viccarlton]

Who decides when the forward pass was made and at what point is it deemed to have been made?

 

[Roadhouse]

We're changing rules to fit around VAR rather than the other way round. You're going to get millimetre differences no matter where you draw the lines, nothing will ever solve that.

 

[Rokerdog1]

A think wenger pushed for this

Apparently going to be trialed in in Canadian premier league shortly

We need something like they have in cricket. Umpires call. If the distance is less than say a12 inches then the linesman’s call stands.

 

[fireballs]

Absolutely pathetic attempt to fix the issue when it wont.

Whatever happened to the early issues of the technology not being good enough to pick the exact time the ball is played forward, and how is that written into the rules? Did they fix it? Is it the exact moment the ball leaves the players foot (or other body part) when they play it forward? Does there need to be a pixel of daylight visible?
There was an offside at the weekend ay the thickness of a shirt sleeve. How much checking is done on the ball being played forward?

It still assumes an accuracy that simply isn't there though.

Let's assume the mesh camera system is sufficient. There are still too many uncontrolled variables - the precise millisecond the ball was played, the exact millimetre between a shoulder and an arm, the billowing of fabric etc. It's always going to be interpretation - from defining where the lines are draw for the 5cm to where the infringement did / didn't happen.

And that interpretation is done under pressure - the VAR team prioritise speed over accuracy.

So it leaves you with two choices. Accept major mistakes without impeding the game, or impede the game in order to reduce the order of magnitude of those mistakes. In both cases mistakes still happen, so I don't see much of an argument for impeding the game.

It's possible that AI will eventually close the gap. Until then reviewing offside via VAR is a net negative for the game.

Aye, this.

 

[The Butcher]

They should at least simplify the rule to draw the line at feet or head positions and stop counting all other body parts in the analysis.

 

[Jasper]

Just scrap offsides. In fact, just scrap football.

 

[rakuga]

If they were going to change the offside rule, it would make more sense to judge attackers feet vs defenders feet imo. Much easier to measure the positions of the same body parts than armpit vs knee or sleeve vs forehead. This full body rule just seems ridiculous.

THIS. It seems so obvious, but it never really seems part of the discussion in the media. It's a clean solution with so many advantages.

It favours the attacker who leans into a run, but not a ridiculous amount like this full body rule. It means that VAR only has to drawn one line across the pitch, instead of also a perpendicular line where the VAR boys fire up MS paint to see if someone's knob-end has strayed offside. Way in the future we could get little sensors in the toe and heel of football boots, and this whole faff would be reduced to a beep in the refs ear, like goalline technology.

I don't mind things getting measured in mm or pixels as long as it's accurate and repeatable every time, to do that you need to reduce as many variables in the rule as possible.

 

[JL1985]

It has never been the case that any player in an offside position is given offside. You wouldn't have a game if it was.

Suppose Burnley's keeper Dubravka goalkeeper has the ball at his feet. You man Brobbey comes to close him down, the defenders belt up to the half way line, and the keeper kicks it clear. As soon as the Ballard heads the clearance, play has to stop because Brobbey is offside.

The only reason that Brobbey is not offside under the current rules is that he isn't interfering with play.

Up to the 1990s, the mere presence of a player in an offside position was an offence. The example you give, play doesn't have to stop, Brobbey or any other SAFC player should just leave the ball.

 

[Sallycinamon]

One look on VAR, with the naked eye, no lines, 10 seconds to make a call. If they can’t decide then it’s onside.

 

[Flavonoids]

THIS. It seems so obvious, but it never really seems part of the discussion in the media. It's a clean solution with so many advantages.

It favours the attacker who leans into a run, but not a ridiculous amount like this full body rule. It means that VAR only has to drawn one line across the pitch, instead of also a perpendicular line where the VAR boys fire up MS paint to see if someone's knob-end has strayed offside. Way in the future we could get little sensors in the toe and heel of football boots, and this whole faff would be reduced to a beep in the refs ear, like goalline technology.

I don't mind things getting measured in mm or pixels as long as it's accurate and repeatable every time, to do that you need to reduce as many variables in the rule as possible.

That's why I gave up my dreams of professional football ...