Echo Watch

[Zen Den]

Really? When you said this?

"Love Phil Smith; Jason Jones is another one who, if you judge him on the output, is a hack, shill, low-level huckster … take your pick."

No idea what you mean. Yes I’m talking about stuff in the Echo - always have been.

I don't have a problem with the content from Smith, Copley or Jones
All appear to be genuine fans, I listen to some of the podcast or you tube, I would subscribe to the echo because the website is crap,

Fans, no doubt. But that’s a different question entirely.

It's just not a problem, hurts nobody.

I think this is a point again where honest people can disagree. It’s certainly not the worst crime in the world, and on the micro scale the harm is minimal, but on the macro scale the cumulative effect of journalists selling out their professional integrity to organisations who practice anti-journalism like clickbait and lazy re-reporting of internet slop is the enshittification of the whole profession.

People are acting like these lads are 12 years old knocking out a school newspaper. While the quality of the writing might give that impression these are grown, adult men.

 

[UltimateRadgieGadgie]

It am surprised about the low level of journalism people in this chat think is acceptable. I get they're a local media outslet and so nobody is asking them to be producing earth shattering news or be at the cutting edge of all Sunderland news at all time. However, the Echo is a big part of Sunderland community and when people under the Echo banner are scamming a living by copy and pasting stuff found online, with no clarification or assessment, it is the absolute pits. You or I could go on newsnow find some articles, re-write them and put them on the Echo website and put a hype filled headline. It's just shit and lazy people scamming a living and scamming the readers.

We're the consumers of their content, not their accountants, so I don't care about their algorithms, or SEO and so saying it's the game they are in is just excusing them doing shortcuts to get eyeballs. We should ask better of them.

 

[Zen Den]

It am surprised about the low level of journalism people in this chat think is acceptable. I get they're a local media outslet and so nobody is asking them to be producing earth shattering news or be at the cutting edge of all Sunderland news at all time. However, the Echo is a big part of Sunderland community and when people under the Echo banner are scamming a living by copy and pasting stuff found online, with no clarification or assessment, it is the absolute pits. You or I could go on newsnow find some articles, re-write them and put them on the Echo website and put a hype filled headline. It's just shit and lazy people scamming a living and scamming the readers.

We're the consumers of their content, not their accountants, so I don't care about their algorithms, or SEO and so saying it's the game they are in is just excusing them doing shortcuts to get eyeballs. We should ask better of them.

But what about the people who’ve been saying they’re just young boys, barely old enough to write, messing around with their ‘My First Journalism Set’ with their little hat with ‘Press’ written on it. Surely we can’t expect more from these cherubs?

 

[SuperMarcoRowell]

Does a really good podcast with a lad called Jason (another reporter - can’t remember his name) reviewing our games.
Phil Smith’s On the Whistle podcast also very good

I think Phil Smith is really insightful and knowledgable..and who wouldn’t want to get paid for reporting on the lads?
It would have been my dream job a few years ago

 

[BlackHoleSun]

Had no idea the consensus on this forum was all in love for the Echo

Live and learn

Up the Echo then

 

[ontap]

I agree, it’s a systemic problem, but I always return to the view that in a free society like ours if you voluntarily stick your name on a piece of writing then you’re complicit and there to be critiqued.

Supports us yet tries to mislead us and piggybacks on the work of others instead. Anyone can go on a podcast and waffle on. This is supposed to be journalism.

We whinge about plenty sad things on here but journalistic standards should not one of them unless we’re proper idiots.

Oh do give it a rest you sad man FFS.

 

[Zen Den]

Oh do give it a rest you sad man FFS.

Why’s it sad, though? I’m genuinely curious. People kick off about all manner of mad nonsense on here, yet this is somehow sad? You’re just throwing out a hollow insult.

 

[UltimateRadgieGadgie]

Local lad, becomes a journalist, writes about the team he supports, and has written some good stuff, gets pelters.
Some people, man.

He's meant to be a journalist that is informing the fans, and all he does it copy paste from shite online websites without any analysis or original thought. It's weird to not ask people who are paid to be journalists to be journalists

 

[Zen Den]

He's meant to be a journalist that is informing the fans, and all he does it copy paste from shite online websites without any analysis or original thought. It's weird to not ask people who are paid to be journalists to be journalists

That and the clickbait… never forget the clickbait.

 

[SAFC1973101]

For Likes? I have no social media, and I don’t base my views on being liked. Evidently!

Honest people can disagree about the degree to which individuals are complicit in the system - I have obviously given my view of this. I could just criticise the Echo as an organisation but then we’re talking about two writers here (excluding Smith), so it’s obvious anyway.

People on here single out players and our manager every week if we don’t win, even though we can all see that they’re grafting their nuts off for 90mins and it’s a zero sum game (excluding draws); yet when I speak about people who clearly are earning a lazy and dishonest living then it’s outrageous.

Not their fault they’re doing the opposite of what they trained for. Maybe don’t do it?

I agree that this would also be considered bad journalism and would be ethically worse than clickbait. But if we complain about journalistic standards there, why not here?

Do you know what they're being trained for? So you know what their metrics and KPIs are? No, you don't, it may not be to your liking but they're clearly young lads who care about their jobs and you're just a faceless nameless profile on a forum posting about young lads doing their best in an incredibly challenged market completely flooded by AI slop.

Comparing criticism of footballers and football managers to junior local reports is laughable.

Let's be brutally honest you're just baiting people for attention and I've definitely bitten, but remember that those lads are just doing their best, following instructions from more senior people on what the metrics and responsibilities are. Particularly Copley has made a real effort on socials to engage with fans, to start new podcasts and to try make the echo a bit more relevant.

 

[Zen Den]

Do you know what they're being trained for? So you know what their metrics and KPIs are? No, you don't, it may not be to your liking but they're clearly young lads who care about their jobs and you're just a faceless nameless profile on a forum posting about young lads doing their best in an incredibly challenged market completely flooded by AI slop.

Comparing criticism of footballers and football managers to junior local reports is laughable.

Let's be brutally honest you're just baiting people for attention and I've definitely bitten, but remember that those lads are just doing their best, following instructions from more senior people on what the metrics and responsibilities are. Particularly Copley has made a real effort on socials to engage with fans, to start new podcasts and to try make the echo a bit more relevant.

I’m posting about local journalists doing anti-journalism. Who cares about their metrics and KPIs? I’m not talking about whether they please their slimey corporate overlords; I’m talking about the local newspaper being dominated by lazy reposting of internet slop, or deceptive clickbait.

This crap about them being young lads is just pathetic. They’re grown adults and if they’re scamming a living they deserve to be called out like any other huckster - and I’ll continue to do so.

If they care about their jobs and what their profession means then maybe don’t disgrace it by doing everything their profession is meant to be against.

Why do you think caring about journalism is baiting people for attention? This is a forum to discuss stuff and I’m responding to anyone who takes the time to reply.


Well that’s all we’ve got time for at Echo Watch this evening. Please join me again tomorrow to find what Football Insider and Teamtalk spaffed out about Sunderland.
Goooood morning, Echo Watch fans, where old news goes for a fresh lick of paint

“Régis Le Bris handed potential £17.5m injury boost ahead of Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest clashes”​

or…

By mad coincidence, 20 mins before Copley’s article was published citing ‘outlets in his homeland’, Sports Witness put out a link to very short article from Futbal Ecuador (one outlet) saying Angulo’s nearly fit, which we all knew anyway because the Echo said he was back on the grass 5 days ago.

Keep trying though! I know you’re just on work experience and can’t be held to any professional standards whatsoever. We’re all just glad you support Sunderland.
Doing an Echo here and reposting the story as it didn’t appear in the feed..

Goooood morning, Echo Watch fans, where old news goes for a fresh lick of paint

“Régis Le Bris handed potential £17.5m injury boost ahead of Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest clashes”​

or…

By mad coincidence, 20 mins before Copley’s article was published citing ‘outlets in his homeland’, Sports Witness put out a link to very short article from Futbal Ecuador (one outlet) saying Angulo’s nearly fit, which we all knew anyway because the Echo said he was back on the grass 5 days ago.

Keep trying though! I know you’re just on work experience and can’t be held to any professional standards whatsoever. We’re all just glad you support Sunderland.

 

[SAFC1973101]

I’m posting about local journalists doing anti-journalism. Who cares about their metrics and KPIs? I’m not talking about whether they please their slimey corporate overlords; I’m talking about the local newspaper being dominated by lazy reposting of internet slop, or deceptive clickbait.

This crap about them being young lads is just pathetic. They’re grown adults and if they’re scamming a living they deserve to be called out like any other huckster - and I’ll continue to do so.

If they care about their jobs and what their profession means then maybe don’t disgrace it by doing everything their profession is meant to be against.

Why do you think caring about journalism is baiting people for attention? This is a forum to discuss stuff and I’m responding to anyone who takes the time to reply.


Well that’s all we’ve got time for at Echo Watch this evening. Please join me again tomorrow to find what Football Insider and Teamtalk spaffed out about Sunderland.
Goooood morning, Echo Watch fans, where old news goes for a fresh lick of paint

“Régis Le Bris handed potential £17.5m injury boost ahead of Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest clashes”​

or…

By mad coincidence, 20 mins before Copley’s article was published citing ‘outlets in his homeland’, Sports Witness put out a link to very short article from Futbal Ecuador (one outlet) saying Angulo’s nearly fit, which we all knew anyway because the Echo said he was back on the grass 5 days ago.

Keep trying though! I know you’re just on work experience and can’t be held to any professional standards whatsoever. We’re all just glad you support Sunderland.
Doing an Echo here and reposting the story as it didn’t appear in the feed..

Goooood morning, Echo Watch fans, where old news goes for a fresh lick of paint

“Régis Le Bris handed potential £17.5m injury boost ahead of Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest clashes”​

or…

By mad coincidence, 20 mins before Copley’s article was published citing ‘outlets in his homeland’, Sports Witness put out a link to very short article from Futbal Ecuador (one outlet) saying Angulo’s nearly fit, which we all knew anyway because the Echo said he was back on the grass 5 days ago.

Keep trying though! I know you’re just on work experience and can’t be held to any professional standards whatsoever. We’re all just glad you support Sunderland.

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean.

Do I like "click bait" journalism....no. Do I understand why they do it...yes.

"Corporate overlords"...give it a rest. They're a subsidiary of a parent...they will have to be profitable....and unfortunately as people's attention spans fall and physical news is all but gone, clicks are the only way to keep the lights on.

Copley has written many other articles which are well thought-out and written, but yes he does have to churn out some click bait to hit the metrics that keep him employed.

He's also grown their social engagement and YouTube presence which is key in the current market.

Of course we'd all like to just read articles which are "proper journalism" but you also need to understand the nuance. The more click baity journalism enables them to do more in depth pieces.

Phil will have done the same in his first few years and now Is more senior than the lads...giving him more time to go more in depth.

 

[Zen Den]

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean.

Do I like "click bait" journalism....no. Do I understand why they do it...yes.

"Corporate overlords"...give it a rest. They're a subsidiary of a parent...they will have to be profitable....and unfortunately as people's attention spans fall and physical news is all but gone, clicks are the only way to keep the lights on.

Copley has written many other articles which are well thought-out and written, but yes he does have to churn out some click bait to hit the metrics that keep him employed.

He's also grown their social engagement and YouTube presence which is key in the current market.

Of course we'd all like to just read articles which are "proper journalism" but you also need to understand the nuance. The more click baity journalism enables them to do more in depth pieces.

Phil will have done the same in his first few years and now Is more senior than the lads...giving him more time to go more in depth.

There’s more depth to this so thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I think if you look at the ratio of clickbait and repasted slop v meaningful articles it’s weighted heavily in favour of the former. As such, the paper practices anti-journalism more than real journalism, helping to fill the coffers of some larger organisation. Why should we care about the Echo bolstering its presence in the market? Who does this benefit? We’re not shareholders.

Like I said before, funding journalism with anti-journalism is like police robbing people to fund more coppers on the beat.

The writers start at the bottom and work up, sure, but Copley has been there 6 years according to the website, so ha’way man. This is just excusing lazy journalism and deception.

 

[CollingwoodFTM]

I enjoy the Echo lads’ YouTube content. It’s much more in depth than they can publish on the Echo site.

Watching Richard Osman on The Rest Is Entertainment, they give a very good overview on local papers online and the publishing ethos the big companies have. It is definitely quantity over quality.

 

[Zen Den]

I enjoy the Echo lads’ YouTube content. It’s much more in depth than they can publish on the Echo site.

Watching Richard Osman on The Rest Is Entertainment, they give a very good overview on local papers online and the publishing ethos the big companies have. It is definitely quantity over quality.

I’ll check that podcast out. This is the big myth some on here perpetuate: that these organisations need to ‘keep the lights on’ by churning out crap, when in reality this is their entire MO and what they want more and more of.

 

[SAFC1973101]

There’s more depth to this so thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I think if you look at the ratio of clickbait and repasted slop v meaningful articles it’s weighted heavily in favour of the former. As such, the paper practices anti-journalism more than real journalism, helping to fill the coffers of some larger organisation. Why should we care about the Echo bolstering its presence in the market? Who does this benefit? We’re not shareholders.

Like I said before, funding journalism with anti-journalism is like police robbing people to fund more coppers on the beat.

The writers start at the bottom and work up, sure, but Copley has been there 6 years according to the website, so ha’way man. This is just excusing lazy journalism and deception.

I'd hardly say it's "filling the coffers' small papers such as the echo will be making tiny levels of profit..if at all. And would I rather have click bait which enables the echo to have some sort of presence than none at all.

I reckon if you asked all the journalists at the echo...none would prefer click bait over real journalism, but would much rather be employed in an industry they like than not be.

I also wouldn't say it's lazy and deceptive, we can all spot click bait a mile off, and it's a necessary evil so they have a job. Each employee needs to pay for his/her seat, without traffic that doesn't happen, and in this day and age quantity is more and more important than quality.

 

[Zen Den]

I'd hardly say it's "filling the coffers' small papers such as the echo will be making tiny levels of profit..if at all. And would I rather have click bait which enables the echo to have some sort of presence than none at all.

I reckon if you asked all the journalists at the echo...none would prefer click bait over real journalism, but would much rather be employed in an industry they like than not be.

I also wouldn't say it's lazy and deceptive, we can all spot click bait a mile off, and it's a necessary evil so they have a job. Each employee needs to pay for his/her seat, without traffic that doesn't happen, and in this day and age quantity is more and more important than quality.

I understand the case you’re making. I personally think individuals in this line of work are complicit in a system that does more harm than good imo, but as I say honest people can disagree about that.

 

[The Cabbage]

Don't like the reproduction articles at all, but I guess it's the price of entry these days and Copley is working in the environment he's in. If he doesn't keep the pages coming, there won't be pages for any actual journalism. Grown an appreciation for his reporting when he does it off his own bat in the last few seasons. He's really good with academy stuff and on the occasions he writes articles as a fan. Phil Smith remains great whatever he does.

 

[Zen Den]

People disagreeing with me is good because maybe they might give me food for thought.

Having reflected on what people had to say it’s certainly made me think more about the extent to which individuals should be held accountable, and I think I was wrong to focus as much on them.

The issue is the system, of course: lazy articles or cheap con-tricks, insulting the intelligence of the supporters or misleading the less discerning, earning eyeballs for faceless and often dubious non-local advertisers, reinforcing the practice, selling out the concept of a local newspaper. And when the ratio of slop to real is so disproportionate you have to wonder if it’s doing more harm than good imo. If the Echo exists to trick people into viewing adverts under the guise of news then that’s pretty rotten for a local paper and just because it’s widespread doesn’t mean we shouldn’t criticise it

The articles are so formulaic they should just use AI if they don’t already, freeing them up to do the good journalism I know deep down they want to do. Or be more creative and try to write more interesting stories Sunderland fans might want to read about. But maybe they’re not allowed to do that.

Which gets me to the point about standing up for your professional integrity. Someone said it was very self righteous of me to say that, and maybe it is - a lot of people do stuff in their jobs they aren’t happy about. In this case I wouldn’t be able to do it - and maybe you can’t say that without sounding self-righteous - but assuming others should feel the same way is wrong and it doesn’t mean they’re wrong for thinking differently.

A few also raised valid points about other, good journalism being done, which admittedly I’ve not really seen, basing this purely on Echo articles.

So, not that anyone should give a damn but sorry to the lads I insulted. Nevertheless I enjoyed the crack with everyone about it.

 

[Weststand]

Nowt wrong with Copley no matter what some weirdos think

Remember - hes one of us

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Seven years ago today, I walked into the Sunderland Echo offices as a 24-year-old starting my first proper salaried job, with far more enthusiasm than actual understanding of what the role actually demanded.I had just come out of four years at university and two degrees, but the reality was I still didn’t have a clue what I was doing, despite finding both courses wholly worthwhile. There really is no substitute for experience.In the years since, I’ve covered Sunderland through takeovers, heavy defeats, the darker periods and the gradual rebuild. I’ve reported on two Wembley losses, three Wembley wins, five play-off campaigns, two derby wins, one derby loss, and football across the Premier League, Championship, League One, the EFL Cup, the FA Cup, the EFL Trophy and a range of youth competitions. It isn’t lost on me that I used to deliver the Sunderland Echo around the streets of Hendon on my paper round. To now be writing for those same supporters - my own people, my city, friends and family - carries a responsibility I try never to take lightly. It remains an honour and a privilege.I’d say I’m a better writer and reporter now than I’ve ever been, but the role itself has moved on. The job now demands far more than words alone - live coverage, breaking stories, podcasts, streaming, video and audio editing, graphics and audience engagement all sit alongside the core of reporting and chasing exclusives.At 31, I still feel like I am just getting started. There is a well-worn idea that if you do something you love, it never quite feels like work. There is some truth in that, but it doesn’t lessen the demands or the ambition. There are still plenty of things I want to achieve and roles I want to take on before I even begin to think about stepping away from what has been, and continues to be, a rollercoaster.

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