Do you ever worry?

[bat_finchale]

That the club ownership is so ruthless, so relentless (to use their own term) to deliver success that

1. They will alienate huge numbers of loyal supporters by a. Pricing them out of the SOL b. Turfing supporters out of their seats they have sat in for decades c. making demands that season ticket holders buy Europe / Domestic Cup Tickets at inflated prices d. Largely remove concession pricing e. Kill the community feel and heritage of the club of generations of families supporting the club.

2. They will sell the club at the first opportunity to make a huge gain leaving us at the mercy of Chelsea like owners

3. Thst this is all about money rather than glory

These are consequences and experiences fans of other clubs have had.

One of the things I always find strange is how the owners don’t ever come out and spell out their vision for the club and how they are going to achieve it.

I watched the interim CEO being interviewed and he said all the right things but did he mean it, are we all a bit gullible lapping up all the positive engaging PR.

They are bloody good, bloody clever and done bloody well. But does anyone worry they might lose their club as they know it.

Which club can we hope we will emulate to have what is success but also ensures that the club is primarily for the people and most importantly not the fan who watches on TV but the one who attends rain , hail and shine.

Bob Murray did everything for the fans, not himself, but delivered limited success.

Is the future for us or despite us ??? Will success be worth it.

Only really interested in views of people who actually go to games … for anyone else what do they care…. And there’s the rub. 40000 people may be sensitive to change but for millions we are just performing seals creating an atmosphere and feeding their entertainment.

Do we feel German football is more wholesome more in tune with supporters?

I think Chelsea, Mags, West Ham, Man Utd have all been destroyed as clubs.
Daft as it might sound I am glad I don’t support Man City, I think it’s lost its soul.
Probably only Liverpool has kept in touch with its roots. Can we do that?

Adapt or die!
I am not worried at all but to your points:
1a. I would assume we are still pretty cheap compared to established Premier League clubs, there has to be a tipping point at which point it becomes too expensive, but willing to ride that wave if success is coming with it.
1b. If it's for the greater good I don't see the issue as long as they can get a seat with the people they sit with. If it means more hospitality, moving away fans, more safe standing, improving the revenue streams and match day experience then is it such a big deal in the grand scheme.
1c. It's an option, you don't have to.
1d. Not sure, I would hope they have done some research on demand for tickets and what demographics.
1e. That's on the fans not the club I would say. They can make decisions that feel soulless but we can always bring the spirit. Some things you can't take away.
2. If the price is right anything is for sale. I had conversations with people who would take a far East backer to put us up in the top 4. I still believe everything is in cycles and we have to hit a ceiling with the money in football and the bubble will burst. It won't be isolated events it will be on a European scale. Only way I can see this not happening is the creation of a super league, smaller teams are on knife edges chasing the big hitters, it's not sustainable.
3. Interesting last point only the stakeholders can answer that one.

Will success be worth it? Do we want to be up competing for leagues, Europe, cups etc or are we happy being mid-low premier league team/potential yo-yo club, happy with the odd couple of rounds in a cup, if the sacrifice is some of what you mention? I don't know the answer, what means more to me, I would love the club to keep it's identity, working class feel, community spirit and if that means I need to settle for little to no success. Why can't we do both?

I work with a lot of Germans and I get the feeling it's not as wholesome and in tune with supporters as we like to believe but it's "the grass is greener" situation. Outside of the premier league I would bet we have the stronger lower divisions around the world and better supported.

 

[PoolsMackem123]

Your point ignores the fact the club have to keep a certain % of tickets back for general sale under EPL regulations.
They sold as many season tickets as they are allowed to, that’s why there is a 15000 waiting list !!!

My point specifically factors that in, not ignores it! If you're moving seats, you aren't impacting the % of tickets kept back, just moving where they are, hence there'll also be a lot of seats to move to

 

[Chewit]

My point specifically factors that in, not ignores it! If you're moving seats, you aren't impacting the % of tickets kept back, just moving where they are, hence there'll also be a lot of seats to move to

Not if they are premiumising your seat

Adapt or die!
I am not worried at all but to your points:
1a. I would assume we are still pretty cheap compared to established Premier League clubs, there has to be a tipping point at which point it becomes too expensive, but willing to ride that wave if success is coming with it.
1b. If it's for the greater good I don't see the issue as long as they can get a seat with the people they sit with. If it means more hospitality, moving away fans, more safe standing, improving the revenue streams and match day experience then is it such a big deal in the grand scheme.
1c. It's an option, you don't have to.
1d. Not sure, I would hope they have done some research on demand for tickets and what demographics.
1e. That's on the fans not the club I would say. They can make decisions that feel soulless but we can always bring the spirit. Some things you can't take away.
2. If the price is right anything is for sale. I had conversations with people who would take a far East backer to put us up in the top 4. I still believe everything is in cycles and we have to hit a ceiling with the money in football and the bubble will burst. It won't be isolated events it will be on a European scale. Only way I can see this not happening is the creation of a super league, smaller teams are on knife edges chasing the big hitters, it's not sustainable.
3. Interesting last point only the stakeholders can answer that one.

Will success be worth it? Do we want to be up competing for leagues, Europe, cups etc or are we happy being mid-low premier league team/potential yo-yo club, happy with the odd couple of rounds in a cup, if the sacrifice is some of what you mention? I don't know the answer, what means more to me, I would love the club to keep it's identity, working class feel, community spirit and if that means I need to settle for little to no success. Why can't we do both?

I work with a lot of Germans and I get the feeling it's not as wholesome and in tune with supporters as we like to believe but it's "the grass is greener" situation. Outside of the premier league I would bet we have the stronger lower divisions around the world and better supported.

Thankyou for your thoughtful reply
Items 1a and b is wishful thinking on your part, ignoring that plenty of clubs before us have done it.
1c We don’t know that.
1d Wishful thinking
1e if the fans who make the noise have been priced out, stuck up on the gods or trying to offset mass areas of corporates they cannot and will not create the same atmosphere.
If you can’t sit with your friends and family as you always have, if the club is no longer for you but for much more affluent here today gone tomorrow band wagon jumpers. If match day is no longer about who you share it with …. It’s not a community

2. Is a very interesting view re cycles. On the one hand Iam amazed that iam promoting idea of extending stadium given one season of full stands, and on the other you are right when does this all cease to be in demand.

I think we can keep our club and have success. The club itself say the brand, the identity is the fans …. They need to ensure they don’t lose that. This is not London, it’s different. There is not an endless supply of monied people who can replace others if they priced out.

 

[Spartan]

We aren't going to become United Liverpool Arsenal Chelsea level successful. Our ceiling is Villa level success and that's probably achievable with the infrastructure we've got .

 

[I am a reindeer]

Yes I definitely worry about point 1.

 

[Becs]

What was the response Becs?

It's been noted!

 

[indymackem]

That the club ownership is so ruthless, so relentless (to use their own term) to deliver success that

1. They will alienate huge numbers of loyal supporters by a. Pricing them out of the SOL b. Turfing supporters out of their seats they have sat in for decades c. making demands that season ticket holders buy Europe / Domestic Cup Tickets at inflated prices d. Largely remove concession pricing e. Kill the community feel and heritage of the club of generations of families supporting the club.

2. They will sell the club at the first opportunity to make a huge gain leaving us at the mercy of Chelsea like owners

3. Thst this is all about money rather than glory

These are consequences and experiences fans of other clubs have had.

One of the things I always find strange is how the owners don’t ever come out and spell out their vision for the club and how they are going to achieve it.

I watched the interim CEO being interviewed and he said all the right things but did he mean it, are we all a bit gullible lapping up all the positive engaging PR.

They are bloody good, bloody clever and done bloody well. But does anyone worry they might lose their club as they know it.

Which club can we hope we will emulate to have what is success but also ensures that the club is primarily for the people and most importantly not the fan who watches on TV but the one who attends rain , hail and shine.

Bob Murray did everything for the fans, not himself, but delivered limited success.

Is the future for us or despite us ??? Will success be worth it.

Only really interested in views of people who actually go to games … for anyone else what do they care…. And there’s the rub. 40000 people may be sensitive to change but for millions we are just performing seals creating an atmosphere and feeding their entertainment.

Do we feel German football is more wholesome more in tune with supporters?

I think Chelsea, Mags, West Ham, Man Utd have all been destroyed as clubs.
Daft as it might sound I am glad I don’t support Man City, I think it’s lost its soul.
Probably only Liverpool has kept in touch with its roots. Can we do that?

Eloquently written... articulated nicely...

But my brain can't compute this way of thinking. One week after achieving what we achieved. At 2am.

Enjoy the ride, wherever it goes. The Lads will always be the Lads.

 

[Chewit]

Eloquently written... articulated nicely...

But my brain can't compute this way of thinking. One week after achieving what we achieved. At 2am.

Enjoy the ride, wherever it goes. The Lads will always be the Lads.

I get it … Iam looking round corners, but fear that corner will be with us within a few months.
Expect the unexpected. The club has moved on football and executive staff we assumed were central and fundamental to our success….We are now told it was planned and strategic.
I recommend not getting up and leaving your seat for long, you might come back and find someone else sat in it who is willing to pay a lot more for a cushion

It's been noted!

Well that was an insightful response they gave you.
They are either making it up as they go along or taking us for fools.
They have put in place a mentality of extracting every pound of revenue and I don’t think for one second they can flip from that to protecting the fan base by applying an integrity check.
At least not until they turn round and say that no season ticket holders will be forced out of their seats, unless the club are themselves forced to ie moving away fans .. but then they will commit to ensuring a relocation with the people you go with.

I think that is an issue, but sadly our 'identity' over the last 15years has been lower end of the premier league and then the lower leagues. A team that plays terrible football and has no hope.

I think the club will develop and feel a bit different, but its what comes with success, and if you dont want your club to be successful, then whats the ultimate aim of supporting them.

That’s effectively the same question as to why I have been pretty much ever present since 1971.
Hope? .. yes, Love and passion?… most definitely, Tradition and identity? …100%. Not least loyalty as if it was some struggling family member

I could go on and on with a 100 reasons why I support my team and frankly none of them are to do with the expectations of winning anything…. Yep it’s more fun when there is jeopardy, but at the end of the day there are very few clubs win any in the football pyramid other than the leagues below their stature.

Can I not have it all?

To succeed in football you have to be ruthless.

Its probably why Sunderland have always struggled as we never have been... until now

KLD is the best we could have asked for in the sense he has grown up watchng how to run a club. The experience and the connections he has are second to none. I don't think he is as ruthless as people might think. All of his decisions while maybe upsetting for those concerned have been done to create growth.

I can honestly say hand on heart, this is the best period for Sunderland in my lifetime and the best team we have ever had.

I don’t disagree but there is a hell of a difference between being ruthless as a performance culture and being ruthless with fans their customers and frankly their purpose… or so they would have us believe.

If I hadn’t watched other clubs do it I would have some faith, but I am not convinced they care about individuals… they are collateral benefit. Hope they prove me wrong

 

[Whey]

Nah

 

[Lord Potts]

That the club ownership is so ruthless, so relentless (to use their own term) to deliver success that

1. They will alienate huge numbers of loyal supporters by a. Pricing them out of the SOL b. Turfing supporters out of their seats they have sat in for decades c. making demands that season ticket holders buy Europe / Domestic Cup Tickets at inflated prices d. Largely remove concession pricing e. Kill the community feel and heritage of the club of generations of families supporting the club.

2. They will sell the club at the first opportunity to make a huge gain leaving us at the mercy of Chelsea like owners

3. Thst this is all about money rather than glory

These are consequences and experiences fans of other clubs have had.

One of the things I always find strange is how the owners don’t ever come out and spell out their vision for the club and how they are going to achieve it.

I watched the interim CEO being interviewed and he said all the right things but did he mean it, are we all a bit gullible lapping up all the positive engaging PR.

They are bloody good, bloody clever and done bloody well. But does anyone worry they might lose their club as they know it.

Which club can we hope we will emulate to have what is success but also ensures that the club is primarily for the people and most importantly not the fan who watches on TV but the one who attends rain , hail and shine.

Bob Murray did everything for the fans, not himself, but delivered limited success.

Is the future for us or despite us ??? Will success be worth it.

Only really interested in views of people who actually go to games … for anyone else what do they care…. And there’s the rub. 40000 people may be sensitive to change but for millions we are just performing seals creating an atmosphere and feeding their entertainment.

Do we feel German football is more wholesome more in tune with supporters?

I think Chelsea, Mags, West Ham, Man Utd have all been destroyed as clubs.
Daft as it might sound I am glad I don’t support Man City, I think it’s lost its soul.
Probably only Liverpool has kept in touch with its roots. Can we do that?

I worry that they didn't plug the old mine shafts very well and that one day during a match the whole shabang is going to disappear down a 1000 foot deep hole in the ground.

 

[CissesUnderpants9]

We aren't going to become United Liverpool Arsenal Chelsea level successful. Our ceiling is Villa level success and that's probably achievable with the infrastructure we've got .

I like this, but it doesn't say they shouldn't try to bridge the gap. for villa, i wonder just how far they can go, without pep at man city, the FA Cup for example isn't out of the question for them, just like it isn't for ourselves, at some point, just look at palace, these last few years for them, it's been a fantastic journey.

 

[Spartan]

I like this, but it doesn't say they shouldn't try to bridge the gap. for villa, i wonder just how far they can go, without pep at man city, the FA Cup for example isn't out of the question for them, just like it isn't for ourselves, at some point, just look at palace, these last few years for them, it's been a fantastic journey.

Big difference between us and the mid tier is that we have a standing army of supporters whereas they have ragtag bands of casuals who can just opt in for big games .
The theatre of Sunderland games is what KLD is chasing. He could've bought a Swiss / French mid ranker if he just wanted to do player trading strategies.

 

[Chewit]

Big difference between us and the mid tier is that we have a standing army of supporters whereas they have ragtag bands of casuals who can just opt in for big games .
The theatre of Sunderland games is what KLD is chasing. He could've bought a Swiss / French mid ranker if he just wanted to do player trading strategies.

Interesting … something to protect then in the culture of the fan base

 

[chriswallace85]

I work with a lot of Germans and I get the feeling it's not as wholesome and in tune with supporters as we like to believe but it's "the grass is greener" situation. Outside of the premier league I would bet we have the stronger lower divisions around the world and better supported.

I think German football's a bit shit and the whole fan experience a bit of a facade to be honest.

Reasons being...

Bayern Munich's dominance. I know Leverkusen won a league. I know Dortmund have won the league. But come on, Bayern has won 16 of the last 20.

I look at German fans in big European games. Behind the goals they're constantly waving these humongous flags, and there's loads of them. Bouncing up and down. Winning, losing or drawing, there they are. Bayern fans. Dortmund fans. Freiburg fans. But are any of them stopping for a split second to actually watch the match? Imagine being in the biggest game of your club's history and you're stood behind some twat with a flag? I'd be livid. It's just so detached from the game itself. It'll never, ever compete with the swelling of tension and the unbridled outbursts of passion and raw emotion that we Sunderland supporters have experienced several times over the past couple of years.. Ballard, Mayenda, Watson, Brobbey etc...

I went to a Hamburg game about ten years ago. End of the season, relegation threatened, and they had to beat Schalke to qualify for the relegation play-off. It was a bit of an experience getting the S-Bahn over and walking to the ground with the fans, but the stadium and the match itself I thought was a damp squib. The atmosphere was just so choregraphed it was crap. Someone with a megaphone facing the crowd singing some Twisted Sister inspired chant throughout. The aforementioned flag waving and bouncing about. It was just so saccharine. So fake. When Hamburg scored - twice - it barely even registered. And this is a huge game. We walked out.

Maybe football's so cheap over there because it has to be.


Our footballing pyramid is unlike any other in the world. Our culture is intertwined with our football clubs. Our clubs are the people, and no ownership group can ever change that. The better owners tap into that.

One of the things I always find strange is how the owners don’t ever come out and spell out their vision for the club and how they are going to achieve it.

When were crap, when Donald and Methven were still about, when KLD was new and we didn't know what to make of him, when we looked like we were going nowhere ever again, that's when I used to think a vision or a 5 year plan would be useful to give assurances to the fans. To give us some idea and timescale on ending the nightmare we were in. But even then, it could easily have been lip service and empty promises. Those were worrying times. Dark times.

Nowadays, I don't think they should.

It doesn't really serve anybody well to do so.

If they communicate it to the fans and fall short, then it becomes a stick for us to beat them with.

Communicate it to the world at large and you could end up with egg on your face, and your competition puts up barriers. You don't tell the world how you're going to conquer it.

Keep your cards close to your chest, review internally, and let the quiet, steady progression speak for itself.

The phase 1 5 year plan was never explicitly mentioned 'til it was achieved, and ahead of schedule. That's impressive. Just enjoy the ride and see what else they've got up their sleeves.

This is the most exciting time to be a Sunderland supporter since the spring of 1973, and it's already lasting a damn sight longer.

If it all goes tits up, then it all goes tits up. We've been there before. Why worry, about a thing? We'll still be here. Sunderland AFC, is gonna be alright.

 

[CissesUnderpants9]

Big difference between us and the mid tier is that we have a standing army of supporters whereas they have ragtag bands of casuals who can just opt in for big games .
The theatre of Sunderland games is what KLD is chasing. He could've bought a Swiss / French mid ranker if he just wanted to do player trading strategies.

Depends what his long term thinking is, i hope its trophys and more europe. maybe even higher.

 

[chriswallace85]

Well that was an insightful response they gave you.
They are either making it up as they go along or taking us for fools.
They have put in place a mentality of extracting every pound of revenue and I don’t think for one second they can flip from that to protecting the fan base by applying an integrity check.
At least not until they turn round and say that no season ticket holders will be forced out of their seats, unless the club are themselves forced to ie moving away fans .. but then they will commit to ensuring a relocation with the people you go with.

This is a bit of a leap mind, dear me.

I think you need to calm down a bit.

 

[Spartan]

Depends what his long term thinking is, i hope its trophys and more europe. maybe even higher.

Hopefully he wants to complete football with Sunderland

 

[Dog in a pram]

I think too many people think that the club is a community organisation rather than a global business (or at least that's what they are trying to be).

We are trying to maintain a position at the very top tables of professional sport globally, and push into the upper eschelons of even that. It costs money to watch elite performers and there is a queue round the block of people who will pay if you don't want to.

There is obviously a balance to be struck as keeping supporters reasonably happy is important to British football culture - but it is a business and needs to be run in a business like fashion.

We have the emotional investment but it is the owners with financial skin in the game. Look at Chansiri, he's walking away from Wednesday something like £150m lighter from his own personal wealth and that is the risk that the owners are taking that they can get it right.

Getting a bit sick of people who don't live in the real world pissing and twisting about seats, prices, ticket office etc.

I'm all for pushing back against absolute piss takes but loads of moans come from a sense that they are entitled to watch every game, exactly how they want to, for the team to be performing and at bargain prices.

Let the dogs abuse commence.

 

[MickeyV]

I think German football's a bit shit and the whole fan experience a bit of a facade to be honest.

Reasons being...

Bayern Munich's dominance. I know Leverkusen won a league. I know Dortmund have won the league. But come on, Bayern has won 16 of the last 20.

I look at German fans in big European games. Behind the goals they're constantly waving these humongous flags, and there's loads of them. Bouncing up and down. Winning, losing or drawing, there they are. Bayern fans. Dortmund fans. Freiburg fans. But are any of them stopping for a split second to actually watch the match? Imagine being in the biggest game of your club's history and you're stood behind some twat with a flag? I'd be livid. It's just so detached from the game itself. It'll never, ever compete with the swelling of tension and the unbridled outbursts of passion and raw emotion that we Sunderland supporters have experienced several times over the past couple of years.. Ballard, Mayenda, Watson, Brobbey etc...

I went to a Hamburg game about ten years ago. End of the season, relegation threatened, and they had to beat Schalke to qualify for the relegation play-off. It was a bit of an experience getting the S-Bahn over and walking to the ground with the fans, but the stadium and the match itself I thought was a damp squib. The atmosphere was just so choregraphed it was crap. Someone with a megaphone facing the crowd singing some Twisted Sister inspired chant throughout. The aforementioned flag waving and bouncing about. It was just so saccharine. So fake. When Hamburg scored - twice - it barely even registered. And this is a huge game. We walked out.

Maybe football's so cheap over there because it has to be.


Our footballing pyramid is unlike any other in the world. Our culture is intertwined with our football clubs. Our clubs are the people, and no ownership group can ever change that. The better owners tap into that.

When were crap, when Donald and Methven were still about, when KLD was new and we didn't know what to make of him, when we looked like we were going nowhere ever again, that's when I used to think a vision or a 5 year plan would be useful to give assurances to the fans. To give us some idea and timescale on ending the nightmare we were in. But even then, it could easily have been lip service and empty promises. Those were worrying times. Dark times.

Nowadays, I don't think they should.

It doesn't really serve anybody well to do so.

If they communicate it to the fans and fall short, then it becomes a stick for us to beat them with.

Communicate it to the world at large and you could end up with egg on your face, and your competition puts up barriers. You don't tell the world how you're going to conquer it.

Keep your cards close to your chest, review internally, and let the quiet, steady progression speak for itself.

The phase 1 5 year plan was never explicitly mentioned 'til it was achieved, and ahead of schedule. That's impressive. Just enjoy the ride and see what else they've got up their sleeves.

This is the most exciting time to be a Sunderland supporter since the spring of 1973, and it's already lasting a damn sight longer.

If it all goes tits up, then it all goes tits up. We've been there before. Why worry, about a thing? We'll still be here. Sunderland AFC, is gonna be alright.

Eloquently put. You express my feelings exactly.
I hate French/German (and some Italian) football for its fake passion; its bland choreographed crowd 'dances'; its megaphone chants; they have drums ffs!!!; the array of massive flags getting in the way; boo-ing/whistling when the opposition have the ball etc. But most of all I despise the fact that they are not there to pay attention to the actual game in front of them. I'm old enough to remember the Roker Roar, and the crowd at the SoL still has something of that about it. 40,000-odd pairs of eyes following the same moves; their voices reacting to the same action on the pitch; the gasps admiration when a player does something stunning (Enzo leaving two Chelsea 'defenders' floundering!) and of course the 'limbs' when we score! It has a spine-tingling energy that forms the fundamental core of the 12th man, and it is so far removed from a bunch of 'ultras' pissing about trying to impress themselves. "F*ck the football, I know the songs and I've got the merch and I can do the Poznan". Idiots!
I thank the Ancestors for a culture that worships football, not cheap gimmicks. We are all Lads!
Regarding our ownership, I am constantly impressed at the way they quietly go about their business, be it transfers out of the blue, commercial improvements (especially in the light of SCR) and steady matchday improvements at the SoL. Some feathers may have to be ruffled along the way, but that is the price of progress.

 

[CissesUnderpants9]

I think too many people think that the club is a community organisation rather than a global business (or at least that's what they are trying to be).

We are trying to maintain a position at the very top tables of professional sport globally, and push into the upper eschelons of even that. It costs money to watch elite performers and there is a queue round the block of people who will pay if you don't want to.

There is obviously a balance to be struck as keeping supporters reasonably happy is important to British football culture - but it is a business and needs to be run in a business like fashion.

We have the emotional investment but it is the owners with financial skin in the game. Look at Chansiri, he's walking away from Wednesday something like £150m lighter from his own personal wealth and that is the risk that the owners are taking that they can get it right.

Getting a bit sick of people who don't live in the real world pissing and twisting about seats, prices, ticket office etc.

I'm all for pushing back against absolute piss takes but loads of moans come from a sense that they are entitled to watch every game, exactly how they want to, for the team to be performing and at bargain prices.

Let the dogs abuse commence.

Some good points, the football club, and the business behind it, you need both to work in partnership to get what we all want which is success, and if we want to go further things may have to change, the owners may need to do things differently.