Discounts for OAPs

[38Red]

Strictly speaking it should be illegal to offer a discount based on age, as you can't discriminate based on a protected characteristic. Yet age based discounts have seemingly been exempt from the 2010 Equality Act.

They are entirely legal because of a specific statutory exemption called the Equality Act 2010 (Age Exceptions) Order 2012.

Under Paragraph 30A of Schedule 3 of the Act, businesses, charities, and public bodies are completely exempt from discrimination claims if they are offering a "concession" (a discount, benefit, or privilege) to a specific age group.

 

[PJH]

You can't blame everything that goes wrong with this country on the elderly. We now have a left leaning government and nothing changes. It takes millions of people of all ages to vote in a government not just old people. You can't pin that one on them.
Reading some of the stuff on this thread brings a certain saying to mind. The race to the bottom is well and truly on.

I don't think any generational anger is really just about pensioners, though some of it will be down to a number of them being financially fine or managing whilst getting extra help and voting for more right of the spectrum parties. But also to an extent the over 50's. Mostly around housing I'd imagine. Majority of households are home owner households, with over half being 55 and over. Just over a third of home owners are 65+

First time home buyer average age has crept up to 34. So while we have a left leaning government in charge, it's hard to actually tackle something a lot of younger or even more specifically under 40's are facing - house prices. Hard to tackle because the majority of voters are incentivised for house prices to keep going up. So standing on a platform of actually reducing house prices - not just 'affordable homes' which tends to mean building average to just below average house price homes - is met with backlash because, well, people don't want home values to go down. Especially mortgage payers who will call warning of negative equity.

Now perhaps a lot of the backlash against the old (maybe 'boomers' specifically) is another part of the wealthy getting the rest of us to fight amongst ourselves. Or perhaps it's a byproduct and backlash against a good amount of the rise of UKIP/Brexit/Reform coming from an older vote. But I don't think it's really race to the bottom stuff. Perhaps just a lot of people of all age brackets are struggling or suffering and some at least see pensioners getting discounts and stuff for seemingly no reason and ask "why not us?" After all the state pension isn't supposed to be enough to live on, it wasn't designed that way. It was designed to supplement another pension and/or savings.

They are entirely legal because of a specific statutory exemption called the Equality Act 2010 (Age Exceptions) Order 2012.

Under Paragraph 30A of Schedule 3 of the Act, businesses, charities, and public bodies are completely exempt from discrimination claims if they are offering a "concession" (a discount, benefit, or privilege) to a specific age group.

But it's an odd exemption though, isn't it? The Equality Act prevents something like Shelia Wheels starting out again by offering insurance discount based on gender.

 

[BiG]

Well I’ve now learned that everything will get better when I’m dead because all the young and hip will vote for a left wing party to govern, who’ll solve all this nonsense about an aging population and youth unemployment and the generation who were the only ones to suffer in the 2008 crash (I was 50 then and at the height of my earning potential, but we’ll leave that to one side because obviously I wasn’t affected as somebody who was younger than me and the 20 years or more that they had to recover isn’t relevant) … what else… oh yeah. The left wing socialist working class interventionist government that the young uns are going to elect will cut pensions, restrict private companies from offering discounts or specials, will either make everybody pay for prescriptions (which will probably happen anyway to be fair), cut the winter fuel allowance, scrap free bus travel for pensioners AND young people, probably scrap blue badge parking permits and tax benefits. What have I missed out from this youthful utopia?

 

[Big Jeff]

.

 

[Seaham Towny]

You can't blame everything that goes wrong with this country on the elderly. We now have a left leaning government and nothing changes. It takes millions of people of all ages to vote in a government not just old people. You can't pin that one on them.
Reading some of the stuff on this thread brings a certain saying to mind. The race to the bottom is well and truly on.

Did I say I blamed everything that goes wrong on the elderly? Look at who voted for the governments I mentioned, and Brexit especially.

Couple of other points.

This government is not left leaning.

When they’ve tried any kind of what you’d call ‘left leaning’ measures, who’re up in arms about it?

I’d love a race that wasn’t to the bottom, would take a lot of people to get some perspective though.

 

[zinedine]

I don't think any generational anger is really just about pensioners, though some of it will be down to a number of them being financially fine or managing whilst getting extra help and voting for more right of the spectrum parties. But also to an extent the over 50's. Mostly around housing I'd imagine. Majority of households are home owner households, with over half being 55 and over. Just over a third of home owners are 65+

First time home buyer average age has crept up to 34. So while we have a left leaning government in charge, it's hard to actually tackle something a lot of younger or even more specifically under 40's are facing - house prices. Hard to tackle because the majority of voters are incentivised for house prices to keep going up. So standing on a platform of actually reducing house prices - not just 'affordable homes' which tends to mean building average to just below average house price homes - is met with backlash because, well, people don't want home values to go down. Especially mortgage payers who will call warning of negative equity.

Now perhaps a lot of the backlash against the old (maybe 'boomers' specifically) is another part of the wealthy getting the rest of us to fight amongst ourselves. Or perhaps it's a byproduct and backlash against a good amount of the rise of UKIP/Brexit/Reform coming from an older vote. But I don't think it's really race to the bottom stuff. Perhaps just a lot of people of all age brackets are struggling or suffering and some at least see pensioners getting discounts and stuff for seemingly no reason and ask "why not us?" After all the state pension isn't supposed to be enough to live on, it wasn't designed that way. It was designed to supplement another pension and/or savings.

But it's an odd exemption though, isn't it? The Equality Act prevents something like Shelia Wheels starting out again by offering insurance discount based on gender.

I wouldn't describe it as a backlash. Without the internet these gobshites wouldn't have a voice. It's just a small number of arseholes looking for a bogeyman.

 

[BiG]

Did I say I blamed everything that goes wrong on the elderly? Look at who voted for the governments I mentioned, and Brexit especially.

Couple of other points.

This government is not left leaning.

When they’ve tried any kind of what you’d call ‘left leaning’ measures, who’re up in arms about it?

I’d love a race that wasn’t to the bottom, would take a lot of people to get some perspective though.

Do you think a ‘left leaning government’ is more or less likely to cut pensions, take away access to free or reduced healthcare and prescriptions, remove the option for free public transport at certain times of day, remove the winter fuel allowance, remove the link between pensions and the cost of living, introduce legislation to outlaw offering discounts to people based on age.

I mean I did offer this perspective earlier but I think my sarcasm kinda skewed it off target. There seems to be a suggestion that a left leaning government will put right all these rightie things that pensioners vote for - the right wing stuff, like the NHS, public transport, welfare provision, social contracts, care for the elderly. That sort of bleeding heart right wing stuff.

Sorry. My sarcasm’s dribbling out again.

 

[Mousehold Mackem]

Basic rate of income tax was 35% in 1975.

Basic rate purchase tax was 8%

Luxury purchase tax was 35%.

By luxuries they mean petrol, TVs and washing machines.

Luxury!

 

[42]

What would you suggest as the way of increasing old age state pension, (always remembering a percentage of a small figure is still a small amout).

A single lock. Agree what % of average earnings state pension should represent & then track it. Because the thing with the triple lock, those small differences compound each year. Compounding results in exponential growth. Its fine for a set period to use as a catch up, but to keep indefinitely is mathematically unsustainable

Yeah, I was going to mention the triple lock and the fact any percentage of nowt is nowt.
We have relatively the lowest state pension in western Europe. Without the triple lock it would be a lot lower. I wonder what some of these people expect pensioners to live on. The state pension is too low but they want it lower. Again the race to the bottom.

Prescriptions are free at 60 as this is an age when things can start to go wrong health wise. Having them free ensures people get them.

We dont really as its trying to compare completely different systems.
Many other European countries have a basic element which is less than ours, and an earnings element which they pay a lot more tax for, which we've effectively just privatised & paid for by private contributions instead.

 

[zinedine]

A single lock. Agree what % of average earnings state pension should represent & then track it. Because the thing with the triple lock, those small differences compound each year. Compounding results in exponential growth. Its fine for a set period to use as a catch up, but to keep indefinitely is mathematically unsustainable


We dont really as its trying to compare completely different systems.
Many other European countries have a basic element which is less than ours, and an earnings element which they pay a lot more tax for, which we've effectively just privatised & paid for by private contributions instead.

Which is why I said relatively.

"In Western Europe, pensioners in the united Kingdom and Portugal generally have the lowest incomes, both in terms of nominal cash values and replacement rates compared to the national average wage. The UK state pension also provides one of the lowest proportions of late-career earnings among developed countries".

 

[c032745y]

I’m fully aware this will be as popular as a guinness fart in a lift, but nevermind. Not trying to be contrary, just intrigued

Why is OAP a discount still a thing. OAP wealth is greater than all other age groups, why do they get a discount for the match, transport, the cinema, whatever?

Don’t give me Mavis who is living on the state pension, the counter is Steve who is living on unemployment benefits.

Where does that stat come from?

 

[42]

Which is why I said relatively.

"In Western Europe, pensioners in the united Kingdom and Portugal generally have the lowest incomes, both in terms of nominal cash values and replacement rates compared to the national average wage. The UK state pension also provides one of the lowest proportions of late-career earnings among developed countries".

But your last sentence is related to my comment. If people want higher retirement incomes, then need to pay more in either by higher NI rates (tax) to boost state pension (like other European countries do) or higher private pension conts. Which ever way, people would moan about it. Cant have it both ways.

Where does that stat come from?

ONS i believe. Its primarily due to property ownership value of said property

 

[T S Garp]

yes 10% off at Iceland on a Tuesday for over 60s is living the dream

Got my 10% off off my chicken skewers and biscotti ice cream sandwiches plus other bits and bobs today

 

[zinedine]

But your last sentence is related to my comment. If people want higher retirement incomes, then need to pay more in either by higher NI rates (tax) to boost state pension (like other European countries do) or higher private pension conts. Which ever way, people would moan about it. Cant have it both ways.


ONS i believe. Its primarily due to property ownership value of said property

Hold on. I said we have the lowest state pension relatively and you then said I was wrong. I then showed you it wasn't wrong. I'm not sure what that exchange has to do with any of the sentences in the quotes I put up.
Anyway as for paying more, the more you earn the more you pay with NI and income tax. We have no control over what we pay into the system it's based on earnings. It's not like a private pension where you can up your payments to get more out.
Personally I'd rather have a government that was competent enough to balance the books with the massive amounts of tax we already pay. Rather than one that is constantly thinking up schemes to screw more out of us. We live in a country where we pay tax on tax, it's bonkers. I doubt I'll see that level of competence in my lifetime though.

 

[42]

Hold on. I said we have the lowest state pension relatively and you then said I was wrong. I then showed you it wasn't wrong. I'm not sure what that exchange has to do with any of the sentences in the quotes I put up.
Anyway as for paying more, the more you earn the more you pay with NI and income tax. We have no control over what we pay into the system it's based on earnings. It's not like a private pension where you can up your payments to get more out.
Personally I'd rather have a government that was competent enough to balance the books with the massive amounts of tax we already pay. Rather than one that is constantly thinking up schemes to screw more out of us. We live in a country where we pay tax on tax, it's bonkers. I doubt I'll see that level of competence in my lifetime though.

I suggested it was cherry picking. France has a lower basic state pension, but higher average for the reasons ive given. Because ours is a flat rate (effectively means tested on the way in) and others aren't, its largely meaningless to claim ours is lower than others.

 

[zinedine]

I suggested it was cherry picking. France has a lower basic state pension, but higher average for the reasons ive given. Because ours is a flat rate (effectively means tested on the way in) and others aren't, its largely meaningless to claim ours is lower than others.

Which ( as I've already said numerous times ) is why I said relatively and not that it was the lowest that is paid out. Relatively means It takes everything into account like percentage of average wage, cost of living and other factors. Taking everything into account we are the lowest in Western Europe down there with Portugal. I didn't create the figures.

"In Western Europe, pensioners in the UK and Portugal generally have the lowest incomes, both in terms of nominal cash values and replacement rates compared to the national average wage. The UK state pension also provides one of the lowest proportions of late-career earnings among developed countries.

United Kingdom
The UK state pension provides a lower level of income relative to average earnings than most other advanced economies.

• 
  
• Poverty & Breakeven: Roughly 14.5% of older people in the UK live in relative income poverty, and UK pensioners suffer one of the highest elderly poverty rates in Western Europe. Analysis of disposable income ranks the UK as having less financial "breathing room" after covering basic living costs than retirees in many neighboring countries.

 

[42]

Which ( as I've already said numerous times ) is why I said relatively and not that it was the lowest that is paid out. Relatively means It takes everything into account like percentage of average wage, cost of living and other factors. Taking everything into account we are the lowest in Western Europe down there with Portugal. I didn't create the figures.

"In Western Europe, pensioners in the UK and Portugal generally have the lowest incomes, both in terms of nominal cash values and replacement rates compared to the national average wage. The UK state pension also provides one of the lowest proportions of late-career earnings among developed countries.

United Kingdom
The UK state pension provides a lower level of income relative to average earnings than most other advanced economies.

• 
  
• Poverty & Breakeven: Roughly 14.5% of older people in the UK live in relative income poverty, and UK pensioners suffer one of the highest elderly poverty rates in Western Europe. Analysis of disposable income ranks the UK as having less financial "breathing room" after covering basic living costs than retirees in many neighboring countries.

Im talking relative also. Your not taking into account how the different systems work & how much more they pay in. Other countries have lower basic state pension relative to earnings. Note "basic" and not earnings related.

 

[zinedine]

Im talking relative also. Your not taking into account how the different systems work & how much more they pay in. Other countries have lower basic state pension relative to earnings. Note "basic" and not earnings related.

Well your idea of relative is different to our government's. It was a government site I got my info from. It's also on other sites out there.

 

[42]

Which ( as I've already said numerous times ) is why I said relatively and not that it was the lowest that is paid out. Relatively means It takes everything into account like percentage of average wage, cost of living and other factors. Taking everything into account we are the lowest in Western Europe down there with Portugal. I didn't create the figures

"In Western Europe, pensioners in the UK and Portugal generally have the lowest incomes, both in terms of nominal cash values and replacement rates compared to the national average wage. The UK state pension also provides one of the lowest proportions of late-career earnings among developed countries.

United Kingdom
The UK state pension provides a lower level of income relative to average earnings than most other advanced economies.

• 
  
• Poverty & Breakeven: Roughly 14.5% of older people in the UK live in relative income poverty, and UK pensioners suffer one of the highest elderly poverty rates in Western Europe. Analysis of disposable income ranks the UK as having less financial "breathing room" after covering basic living costs than retirees in many neighboring countries.

Well your idea of relative is different to our government's. It was a government site I got my info from. It's also on other sites out there.

Other countries contribute (in tax) more as a % of salary (relative) so end up with more on average.
Those who contribute nothing, get more in this country (BASIC breadline pension)

The first bit bumps up averages across the board that make ours look worse

Im now giving up, as youre not getting it

 

[zinedine]

Other countries contribute (in tax) more as a % of salary (relative) so end up with more on average.
Those who contribute nothing, get more in this country (BASIC breadline pension)

The first bit bumps up averages across the board that make ours look worse

Im now giving up, as youre not getting it

Its not me not getting it.