James Anderson Watch in Australia

[The Breen Machine]

I dont agree with either of you Its about performing against all types of bowling - Vaughan was an exceptional player on hard bouncy surfaces against the very best but you also play cricket against gentle swing, spin in Sri Lanka etc and of course pressure situations. Trescothick IMO was a better test player than Vaughan although I loved to watch Vaughan play.

Good point you make mate, almsot forgot how good Trescothick was against spin bowling and how impressive his record on the subcontinent was. Vaughan was a beautifully elegant player but if you took away his golden year of 2002, his record would be quite average. Still prefer Vaughan but think that's more due to style than substance

 

[rentaghost]

sums you up, trying to belittle someone such as Vaughan.

That Aussie attack in 2003 was along with the Windies the best to ever grace the game. If you wish to belittle Vaughans achievements so be it. Lack of respect and naivety

Hang on a minute - I was responding to you claiming Vaughan was a match winner someone like KP won England games in pressure situations. You then give an example on someone who batted sensationally in a series where we had lost the Ashes after 3 tests

Vaughan batsmanship over theere was close to the best ive seen and against great opposition but that wasnt your argument.

Good point you make mate, almsot forgot how good Trescothick was against spin bowling and how impressive his record on the subcontinent was. Vaughan was a beautifully elegant player but if you took away his golden year of 2002, his record would be quite average. Still prefer Vaughan but think that's more due to style than substance

At the beginning of the Ashes series Collingwoods test average was just about exactly the same as Michael Vaughan's and you are quite right 2002 apart whis record would be substandard for a test player

 

[The Breen Machine]

At the beginning of the Ashes series Collingwoods test average was just about exactly the same as Michael Vaughan's and you are quite right 2002 apart whis record would be substandard for a test player

Strange really isn't it, suppose it's what helps make cricket such a great game, that someone with the technique of Collingwood could have the same average as someone with the class of Vaughan. Just goes to show you need all sorts to succeed at the top level.

 

[essex boy]

Hang on a minute - I was responding to you claiming Vaughan was a match winner someone like KP won England games in pressure situations. You then give an example on someone who batted sensationally in a series where we had lost the Ashes after 3 tests

Vaughan batsmanship over theere was close to the best ive seen and against great opposition but that wasnt your argument.



At the beginning of the Ashes series Collingwoods test average was just about exactly the same as Michael Vaughan's and you are quite right 2002 apart whis record would be substandard for a test player

FFS Vaughan retired about 3 years ago since when the quality of test match cricket in most peoples minds has vastly diminshed. He needless to say, also spent many a test match batting in a lot of pain with his knee. Yet, you still try and draw rediculous comparisons.

In addition Vaughan spent most of his career in the top 3 against the new ball, whereas Colly has never got any higher than 5. Bell perfectly illustrates how much easier it is to bat low down than high up

 

[The Breen Machine]

FFS Vaughan retired about 3 years ago since when the quality of test match cricket in most peoples minds has vastly diminshed. He needless to say, also spent many a test match batting in a lot of pain with his knee. Yet, you still try and draw rediculous comparisons.

In addition Vaughan spent most of his career in the top 3 against the new ball, whereas Colly has never got any higher than 5. Bell perfectly illustrates how much easier it is to bat low down than high up

I totally agree

Although Colly's best run in the England side came batting at number 4 believe it or not.

 

[essex boy]

I totally agree

Although Colly's best run in the England side came batting at number 4 believe it or not.

I can just see Rentaghost clicking away on cric info trying to search for some stats to back up his point which was pretty shocking even for him

 

[The Breen Machine]

I can just see Rentaghost clicking away on cric info trying to search for some stats to back up his point which was pretty shocking even for him

In fairness I don't think test match attacks have declined as rapidly as you say since Vaughan's injury problems and retirement

 

[CollingwoodFTM]

Back to Anderson, his test match bowling average peaked at just over 39 vs Sri Lanka in the winter of 2007.

Since then he has taken 143 wickets at a shade over 28.

historically a good test match bowling average was under 30. A great average was under 25, so he's doing OK. He's way from being the best in the World, but he's been the best in England for a while now.

I would take Harmy, Fred, Hoggy and Jones above the current crop, but you can't fault the success they are delivering. For me Swann is the only one who'd replace a bowler from the 2005 series.

 

[redandwhiterob]

Anyone else think Essex boy cant sleep at night, to busy worrying about what he is going to post on here the next day

Obsessed I tell you

 

[essex boy]

In fairness I don't think test match attacks have declined as rapidly as you say since Vaughan's injury problems and retirement

In the last 3 years or so, the following have all packed in test cricket. The quality on show in test cricket has never been so poor IMO, with the most notable reason being the IPL

Kumble
Pollock
Warne
Mcgrath
Bond
Muralitharan
Vaas
Shoaib Akhtar
Brett Lee

 

[rentaghost]

I can just see Rentaghost clicking away on cric info trying to search for some stats to back up his point which was pretty shocking even for him

Just rewind a little bit here. You have chosen Michael Vaughan as an example along with KP as a 'do are die' player for England who could be relied on in thise situations in matches where his performance can be the difference between winning and losing. You have yet to give a single example to back up this claim. His average was moderate for a test cricketer and was nowhere near as effective a batsman in all situations as Tescothick. His average being the same as Collingwoods pre tour simply emphasises the fact that Vaughan didnt perform consistently enough for a player of his ability even taking his knee problems into account.

Now Vaughan - do or die - the difference between winning and losing. Where do you base this this on?

 

[essex boy]

Anyone else think Essex boy cant sleep at night, to busy worrying about what he is going to post on here the next day

Obsessed I tell you

yawn yawn

Just rewind a little bit here. You have chosen Michael Vaughan as an example along with KP as a 'do are die' player for England who could be relied on in thise situations in matches where his performance can be the difference between winning and losing. You have yet to give a single example to back up this claim. His average was moderate for a test cricketer and was nowhere near as effective a batsman in all situations as Tescothick. His average being the same as Collingwoods pre tour simply emphasises the fact that Vaughan didnt perform consistently enough for a player of his ability even taking his kne problems into account.

Now Vaughan - do or die - the difference between winning and losing. Where do you base this this on?

so you havent found any stats.

Performing in Australia against the best side to have ever played the game IMO, when we were getting our asses spanked game after game, Vaughan sometimes being a one man show against Mcgrath and Warne and you trying to claim he wasnt a big game player and they were all fast and bouncy decks....like Adelaide and MCG where you were telling anyone who would listen a few weeks back that they were low and slow

Back to Anderson, his test match bowling average peaked at just over 39 vs Sri Lanka in the winter of 2007.

Since then he has taken 143 wickets at a shade over 28.

historically a good test match bowling average was under 30. A great average was under 25, so he's doing OK. He's way from being the best in the World, but he's been the best in England for a while now.

I would take Harmy, Fred, Hoggy and Jones above the current crop, but you can't fault the success they are delivering. For me Swann is the only one who'd replace a bowler from the 2005 series.

agreed. Giles was very limited.

 

[The Breen Machine]

In the last 3 years or so, the following have all packed in test cricket. The quality on show in test cricket has never been so poor IMO, with the most notable reason being the IPL

Kumble
Pollock
Warne
Mcgrath
Bond
Muralitharan
Vaas
Shoaib Akhtar
Brett Lee

Yes but you do realise Collingwood made his test debut in 2003 and became a regular test player at the end of 2005. He faced all of these bowlers aswell as Vaughan did.

 

[rentaghost]

In the last 3 years or so, the following have all packed in test cricket. The quality on show in test cricket has never been so poor IMO, with the most notable reason being the IPL

Kumble
Pollock
Warne
Mcgrath
Bond
Muralitharan
Vaas
Shoaib Akhtar
Brett Lee

Which of those have say Collingwood not played against

 

[essex boy]

Yes but you do realise Collingwood made his test debut in 2003 and became a regular test player at the end of 2005. He faced all of these bowlers aswell as Vaughan did.

I do realise this but am also aware he would have savaged this current Aussie attack and his average would be nearer 50 now.

Pakistan last summer were also a pale shadow of what Vaughan would have come up against in his career

Which of those have say Collingwood not played against

its more the fact of what he has faced in the last 3 years that Vaughan hasnt.

 

[rentaghost]

yawn yawn



so you havent found any stats.

Performing in Australia against the best side to have ever played the game IMO, when we were getting our asses spanked game after game, Vaughan sometimes being a one man show against Mcgrath and Warne and you trying to claim he wasnt a big game player and they were all fast and bouncy decks....like Adelaide and MCG where you were telling anyone who would listen a few weeks back that they were low and slow



agreed. Giles was very limited.

All very commendable and what a f***ing display of batting it was - but that wasnt your argument was it.

I havent got a clue what stats you want me to find. What are you talking about?

I do realise this but am also aware he would have savaged this current Aussie attack and his average would be nearer 50 now.

Pakistan last summer were also a pale shadow of what Vaughan would have come up against in his career



its more the fact of what he has faced in the last 3 years that Vaughan hasnt.

He struggled to savage Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi seamers in home series what makes you so confident?

 

[The Breen Machine]

I do realise this but am also aware he would have savaged this current Aussie attack and his average would be nearer 50 now.

Pakistan last summer were also a pale shadow of what Vaughan would have come up against in his career

No guarantees. As Rentaghost has already mentioned, he seemed to struggle against quite average medium pace, even Ricky Ponting got him out once!

 

[essex boy]

No guarantees. As Rentaghost has already mentioned, he seemed to struggle against quite average medium pace, even Ricky Ponting got him out once!

Big game player would make batting look easy against the greatest and struggle against Ponting.

Did any one individual play as well against the Aussies over a 20 year period when they were as good in a series as Vaughan did?

 

[The Breen Machine]

Big game player would make batting look easy against the greatest and struggle against Ponting.

Did any one individual play as well against the Aussies over a 20 year period when they were as good in a series as Vaughan did?

Brian Lara tortured them in a series in the late 90's, single handedly carried the Windies to a series draw.

A lot of the Indian's such as Tendulkar and Laxman have good records against them.

Vaughan has to be up there for that series though, he was sheer class.

 

[rentaghost]

I do realise this but am also aware he would have savaged this current Aussie attack and his average would be nearer 50 now.

Pakistan last summer were also a pale shadow of what Vaughan would have come up against in his career



its more the fact of what he has faced in the last 3 years that Vaughan hasnt.

I would also add that Asif is a very good bowler and exactly the type that would have Vaughan number. In fact I think he might have done last time they toured although i'm not certain.