Sunderland Hooligans

[Elephant]

Yeah, pretty much like York, Aldershot, Chesterfield, Northampton, Southend, Bury etc which turned out OK but could have turned nasty .......... a certain series of coincidences can sometimes have dreadful results, like Hillsborough.

Looking back York was very dodgy. Only the season before Hillsboro. The terraces behind the goal were way overcrowded. Again that was a mixture of hundreds of ticketless fans and police that didn't know what they were doing.

 

[Parkmaverick]

Yeah, pretty much like York, Aldershot, Chesterfield, Northampton, Southend, Bury etc which turned out OK but could have turned nasty .......... a certain series of coincidences can sometimes have dreadful results, like Hillsborough.

and Chester

 

[SW-Durham Mackem]

Yeah, pretty much like York, Aldershot, Chesterfield, Northampton, Southend, Bury etc which turned out OK but could have turned nasty .......... a certain series of coincidences can sometimes have dreadful results, like Hillsborough.

Exactly right mate.

But alot of Sunderland fans turning up at those games without tickets or taking over the ground weren't all hooligans. Just supporters desperate to see their team...

Same as Liverpool fans in Sheffield.

 

[Riviera]

and Chester

The only thing I remember about Chester was fancy dress and about 40 sand-dancers in the seats to the left of the away end ........ bit of trouble in town when we kept calling them Taffs

 

[stretch]

and Chester

too many arabs at chester

 

[Keith S30S]

People are talking about ticketless fans for some reason when most away games in the 1980's weren't all ticket for home or away fans. I and most on this thread travelled the length of the country without any tickets.

The Milk Cup Semi Final at Chelsea in '85 wasn't all ticket. 2 coach loads from Grindon, including me didn't even get to see the ground there was so many trying to get in

Often the only place you could buy tickets for was the seats.

 

[SW-Durham Mackem]

People are talking about ticketless fans for some reason when most away games in the 1980's weren't all ticket for home or away fans. I and most on this thread travelled the length of the country without any tickets.

Often the only place you could buy tickets for was the seats.

Correct...

People seem to think its ok to blame Liverpool fans for turning up on mass without tickets, we have done the same at loads of grounds.

Blokes, women, kids and families turned up at Hillsborough without tickets and contributed to the problems outside the turnstiles.

Fuck all to do with hooliganism.

 

[Riviera]

Correct...

People seem to think its ok to blame Liverpool fans for turning up on mass without tickets, we have done the same at loads of grounds.

Blokes, women, kids and families turned up at Hillsborough without tickets and contributed to the problems outside the turnstiles.

Fuck all to do with hooliganism.

It depends what you class as hooliganism.

 

[Keith S30S]

Correct...

People seem to think its ok to blame Liverpool fans for turning up on mass without tickets, we have done the same at loads of grounds.

Blokes, women, kids and families turned up at Hillsborough without tickets and contributed to the problems outside the turnstiles.

Fuck all to do with hooliganism.

I was making a general point about paying on the door, it was common practise until fairly recent times.

However, I would imagine FA Cup Semi Finals have been all ticket for donkeys years, ours in 1992 certainly was and I believe Hillsborough would have been in 1989.

 

[SW-Durham Mackem]

It depends what you class as hooliganism.

Well if you look at the definition it dosen't really fit in with football supporters turning up without tickets, not in those days anyway.

But i guess its all down to a matter of opinion.

 

[Riviera]

Well if you look at the definition it dosen't really fit in with football supporters turning up without tickets, not in those days anyway.

But i guess its all down to a matter of opinion.

I would class 1000's of fans, without tickets, turning up at a sold out game as irresponsible and bordering on hooliganism ........ the Liverpool fans who rushed into that stand knew that they were putting at risk the people who had tickets.

At best they would take the seats of loyal fans who had accrued enough points to purchase tickets and at worst would overcrowd an already packed stadium.

 

[SOLid]

It depends what you class as hooliganism.

Spot on, Riv. My interpretation always was the organised firms. You find daft aggressive assholes in every city, town and village. Hooligans they may be but we are talking football context here.

This from the

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Football hooliganism has no specific legal definition. The term was created by the media, the tabloid press in particular, in the mid-1960s and since then they have been extremely flexible and indeterminate in ascribing the "hooligan" label to different incidents. Football hooliganism is seen by most to mean violence and/or disorder involving football fans. However there are two very specific 'types' of disorder that have been labelled 'hooliganism': (a) Spontaneous and usually low level disorder caused by fans at or around football matches (the type that typically occurs at England away matches), and (b) Deliberate and intentional violence involving organised gangs (or 'firms') who attach themselves to football clubs and fight firms from other clubs, sometimes a long way in time and space from a match. Therefore if you are using the term 'football hooliganism' in your work, be very clear about what it is you are referring to!

and

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There is no precise definition of ‘football hooliganism’. It lacks legal definition, precise
demarcation of membership and is used to cover a variety of actions which take place in more or
less directly football-related contexts. To account for some of the phenomenon’s main features, a distinction should be drawn between spontaneous, relatively isolated incidents of spectator violence and the behaviour of socially organized or institutionalized fan (hooligan) groups which engage in competitive violence, principally with other hooligan groups.

BTW Riv - your recollections are classic and authentic. Breath of fresh air on here, mate.
Love the "Billy Liar" avatar. Top class! Nil Illegitimae tibi carborundum

 

[SW-Durham Mackem]

I would class 1000's of fans, without tickets, turning up at a sold out game as irresponsible and bordering on hooliganism ........ the Liverpool fans who rushed into that stand knew that they were putting at risk the people who had tickets.

At best they would take the seats of loyal fans who had accrued enough points to purchase tickets and at worst would overcrowd an already packed stadium.

I agree it could be deemed irresponsible but in no way was it hooliganism. Like i said it was mix of everyone.

The police opened the exits and allowed those fans to rush in. I honestly don't believe for one minute that it even clicked in the minds of those fans who rushed in, that by doing so it could result in fellow supporters crushed to death by the perimeter fence..

Put yourself in their situation. You're locked outside the ground and desperate to see your team in a semi final and someone opens the gates to let you in.

Do you stop for a minute and think about the consequences?

 

[Riviera]

I agree it could be deemed irresponsible but in no way was it hooliganism. Like i said it was mix of everyone.

The police opened the exits and allowed those fans to rush in. I honestly don't believe for one minute that it even clicked in the minds of those fans who rushed in, that by doing so it could result in fellow supporters crushed to death by the perimeter fence..

Put yourself in their situation. You're locked outside the ground and desperate to see your team in a semi final and someone opens the gates to let you in.

Do you stop for a minute and think about the consequences?

I know this is a very touchy subject so I'll choose my words very carefully. It was known for weeks that the game was a complete sell-out and there was no point in travelling to the ground without a ticket.

Despite this, 1000's of Liverpool fans went to Sheffield intent on doing what they often boasted about and 'jibbing' their way into the ground.

The Forest fans, on that day, had very few people there without tickets despite the fact that Hillsborough was less than an hour from Nottingham.

The Liverpool fans who forced their way into the Leepings Lane End knew that they would either be taking the seats of ticket holders or causing problems for the police and stewards who had nowhere to put them.

Because of the nature of the ground there was no need to have any empty sections as buffer zones. This meant that the 1000's of fans without tickets would never find seats and the game would be compromised.

This can be deemed as simply irresponsible.

However, you could argue that someone who travels to a sold out semi-final without a ticket intent on gaining entry, at the expense of decent fans, is displaying hooligan tendencies.

If you were to be excluded from the FA Cup semi-final, having purchased a ticket, because someone had stormed the ground and taken your seat, you may well call them a hooligan.

 

[SW-Durham Mackem]

I know this is a very touchy subject so I'll choose my words very carefully. It was known for weeks that the game was a complete sell-out and there was no point in travelling to the ground without a ticket.

Despite this, 1000's of Liverpool fans went to Sheffield intent on doing what they often boasted about and 'jibbing' their way into the ground.

The Forest fans, on that day, had very few people there without tickets despite the fact that Hillsborough was less than an hour from Nottingham.

The Liverpool fans who forced their way into the Leepings Lane End knew that they would either be taking the seats of ticket holders or causing problems for the police and stewards who had nowhere to put them.

Because of the nature of the ground there was no need to have any empty sections as buffer zones. This meant that the 1000's of fans without tickets would never find seats and the game would be compromised.

This can be deemed as simply irresponsible.

However, you could argue that someone who travels to a sold out semi-final without a ticket intent on gaining entry, at the expense of decent fans, is displaying hooligan tendencies.

If you were to be excluded from the FA Cup semi-final, having purchased a ticket, because someone had stormed the ground and taken your seat, you may well call them a hooligan.

I can't speak for everyone but i know for a fact that loads of SAFC have travelled to 'sold out' games over the years and tried to get in the away end/home end. On a smaller scale (maybe not in some cases) but its relevant all the same - thats not to say what these fans did was correct but to label them as hooligans is crazy imo.

The Forest fans should of been allocated the leppings lane end (the smaller end) instead of LFC! that was another mistake.

The Liverpool fans who rushed in probably thought they were heading towards the terracing at the front of the leppings lane, they wouldn't of had any idea what it was like at the front or which pen was getting full!

 

[Riviera]

I can't speak for everyone but i know for a fact that loads of SAFC have travelled to 'sold out' games over the years and tried to get in the away end/home end. On a smaller scale (maybe not in some cases) but its relevant all the same - thats not to say what these fans did was correct but to label them as hooligans is crazy imo.

The Forest fans should of been allocated the Leppings Lane end (the smaller end) instead of LFC! that was another mistake.

The Liverpool fans who rushed in probably thought they were heading towards the terracing at the front of the leppings lane, they wouldn't of had any idea what it was like at the front or which pen was getting full!

Yes I know that mate and I've been as bad as anyone.
As an exile I can't get away tickets and have bought home tickets, been transferred or just blagged my way in with Sunderland and sat in the aisles.

The thing is that I've inconvenienced people and caused problems for the stewards by sitting in other people's seats etc..... I've climbed walls and told stewards I've just been outside to my my car etc.

What happened at Hillsborough was that 1000's, not dozens, of desperate, arrogant people, who may or may not have had a drink, turned up intent, not hoping, to get into the ground.

My first thought was 'there but for the grace of God' because I know, in my heart, that I'd done worse myself. I've done worse since and would accept that it was 'hooligan' behaviour.

There's no avoiding the issue ............ coming to a ground intent of gaining entry, even at the expense of the seat holder, is wrong.
I've laughed about it because I've always found somewhere to sit myself down but at Hillsborough there were too many 'workey-tickets' and too little organisation.

 

[SW-Durham Mackem]

Yes I know that mate and I've been as bad as anyone.
As an exile I can't get away tickets and have bought home tickets, been transferred or just blagged my way in with Sunderland and sat in the aisles.

The thing is that I've inconvenienced people and caused problems for the stewards by sitting in other people's seats etc..... I've climbed walls and told stewards I've just been outside to my my car etc.

What happened at Hillsborough was that 1000's, not dozens, of desperate, arrogant people, who may or may not have had a drink, turned up intent, not hoping, to get into the ground.

My first thought was 'there but for the grace of God' because I know, in my heart, that I'd done worse myself. I've done worse since and would accept that it was 'hooligan' behaviour.

There's no avoiding the issue ............ coming to a ground intent of gaining entry, even at the expense of the seat holder, is wrong.
I've laughed about it because I've always found somewhere to sit myself down but at Hillsborough there were too many 'workey-tickets' and too little organisation.

I honestly don't think most of those Liverpool fans turned up intent on causing trouble or breaking into the ground - things i can associate with hooliganism.

It wasn't them that opened or kicked in the exit gates and givin the chance i think most of them would of payed on the turnstile expecting to find somewhere on the terrace. Obviously with the sheer numbers gathering out side it was never going to be posible.

There were mistakes made on all sides but personally i'll never put it down to hooliganism or even accept it as a contributing factor.

We could argue about it for eternal.

 

[Riviera]

I honestly don't think most of those Liverpool fans turned up intent on causing trouble or breaking into the ground - things i can associate with hooliganism.

It wasn't them that opened or kicked in the exit gates and givin the chance i think most of them would of payed on the turnstile expecting to find somewhere on the terrace. Obviously with the sheer numbers gathering out side it was never going to be posible.

There were mistakes made on all sides but personally i'll never put it down to hooliganism or even accept it as a contributing factor.

We could argue about it for eternal.

Well they didn't come to the ground to stand outside and soak up the atmosphere ........... there was never any chance of them paying on the day and they all knew that before they left home.

 

[SW-Durham Mackem]

Well they didn't come to the ground to stand outside and soak up the atmosphere ........... there was never any chance of them paying on the day and they all knew that before they left home.

Haway man it wasn't that straight forward back then. Even with 'sold out' games you knew you had a chance of turning up and still getting into the ground... that kind of thing was still going on with SAFC away games up until about 96 and still goes on today probably.

 

[dangermows]

I know this is a very touchy subject so I'll choose my words very carefully. It was known for weeks that the game was a complete sell-out and there was no point in travelling to the ground without a ticket.

Despite this, 1000's of Liverpool fans went to Sheffield intent on doing what they often boasted about and 'jibbing' their way into the ground.

The Forest fans, on that day, had very few people there without tickets despite the fact that Hillsborough was less than an hour from Nottingham.

The Liverpool fans who forced their way into the Leepings Lane End knew that they would either be taking the seats of ticket holders or causing problems for the police and stewards who had nowhere to put them.

Because of the nature of the ground there was no need to have any empty sections as buffer zones. This meant that the 1000's of fans without tickets would never find seats and the game would be compromised.

This can be deemed as simply irresponsible.

However, you could argue that someone who travels to a sold out semi-final without a ticket intent on gaining entry, at the expense of decent fans, is displaying hooligan tendencies.

If you were to be excluded from the FA Cup semi-final, having purchased a ticket, because someone had stormed the ground and taken your seat, you may well call them a hooligan.

iirc there was an empty pen to the right which should have been opened up.