Conning the ref

[AC Mack]

Ok, fair enough, so to clarify, the hope is that I don't think "crack on" when I see or hear of people committing theft and robbery?

Still seems like a bit of a stretch from having a pragmatic attitude toward it not being the footballers' fault that they take what they can get. It's the way the game is officiated that's at fault.

Im pretty shocked folk on here have such zero tolerance for it, given every time we've got away with one, ive missed the hysteria.

It just seems like an obvious every-day comparison to make. Obviously the latter is a lot more serious.

There's no hysteria when we get away with it because of the lack of impartiality among football fans generally.

 

[Coeus]

It just seems like an obvious every-day comparison to make. Obviously the latter is a lot more serious.

There's no hysteria when we get away with it because of the lack of impartiality among football fans generally.

Appears obscene to me, far from obvious.

The impartiality appears to make a mockery of the high ground to my mind, do you think football fans only care about robbery when it doesn't benefit them?

 

[Definitely Maybe]

Agree with the OP that players trying to con the ref is more of a problem than the ref failing to control 22 players who are trying to con him.

Think the current issues stem back to the implementation of VAR 8 years ago though. VAR was sold as a way of guaranteeing accuracy and taking away the controversy but that's impossible because many decisions are still subjective. Referees are more scrutinised than ever because of this and, because of the extra scrutiny and the fact they get another crack at it if they get it wrong, I think there's a bit of nervousness from referees to make a decision. But at the same time, VAR took so long and interfered on ridiculous things in the early years so the steer now is to only intervene if 'clear and obvious', which is still subjective and leads to situations where decisions are probably wrong but not 'clearly and obviously' wrong, meaning VAR can't intervene. But again, that is still subjective and different thresholds seem to apply to different games.

All a bit of a mess. Before VAR though, any touch on the keeper seemed to be given as a foul which wasn't great but everyone knew where they stood. If the West Ham goal was scored before VAR I think the ref would have just blown and disallowed it straight away, West Ham would have moaned for a few hours but would have been largely forgotten about but because it took so long to decide, the numerous replays showed other fouls and the overall decision is inconstent with other incidents that weren't VARed, the accuracy is questionable and the controversy amplified.

 

[Redandwhitedust]

In golf, professionals attempt to cheat. In cricket, professionals attempt to cheat. In rugby, you get the picture. Difference is the level of officiating and consequence. You could argue that football is far more difficult to officiate, I couldnt say as im far from knowledgeable in those sports but I imagine that has its part to play in football officials getting blamed.

Im saying its footballers job to win the game within the given rules, if those rules are not enforced, i dont blame players or clubs for taking advantage.

Problem in football is football culture has basically made it part of the game now.

Youll hear commentators say
"He wins the penalty", "hes entitled to go down", he "draws the foul" "its soft, but the defender gave the ref the decsion to make"

Once criticism of cheating becomes the norm, you might see change

 

[Zen Den]

I believe its called a foul as opposed to cheating, which are judged by how severe they are. This thread is pretty crazy, are you suggesting that instead of trying to win the players should endeavour to uphold the strictest idea of fair play and that can be found in any other competitive sport in the world?

Just don’t cheat. I think some other sports do have a better idea of sportsmanship.

Ive said for a while, in a game where players have stats for everything from "aerial duels won" and "distance covered". We should have stats for "total game delay" and call it "time spent cheating"

No player wants to be top of that league and I bet youd see players jumping up after tackles rather than punching the floor and rolling around grabbing body parts that werent touched.

The way you define injury/feigning is based entirely on when they get up. If the physio deems they need treatment they go off field to be treated for the minimum of time they spent on the floor. If its a real injury they wont mind and manager can bring on a sub. No time is added to their cheating stats.

If the player gets up and doesnt need treatment. The time is added to their stat for cheating.

Something has to be done to stop these players punching the floor and yelling and delaying the game over absolutely nowt

You could measure the amount of time a player delays a game and yeah it would be an embarrassing stat to be top of, but not sure if you could prove that a player who stays down but doesn’t need to go off for treatment is always cheating.

The time delay on the field being matched by the time spent off the field is an interesting eye-for-an-eye situation - quite a left field suggestion but don’t mind it!

 

[Redandwhitedust]

You could measure the amount of time a player delays a game and yeah it would be an embarrassing stat to be top of, but not sure if you could prove that a player who stays down but doesn’t need to go off for treatment is always cheating.

You see it in so many players. Fair tackle, goes down, screams, punches the floor, grabs ankle... rolls about.

Then jumps up When the decision is/isnt given. If you are in that much pain. You dont jump up.
Ive seen seriously late tackles in non league matches, none of their lads go on like that.

If the rules state you must get to your feet if able, then fine. We treat someone down as injured and they go off for as many seconds as they delayed the game. If its a genuine injury the manager can use a sub.
Youd soon see players getting up.

 

[Coeus]

Problem in football is football culture has basically made it part of the game now.

Youll hear commentators say
"He wins the penalty", "hes entitled to go down", he "draws the foul" "its soft, but the defender gave the ref the decsion to make"

Once criticism of cheating becomes the norm, you might see change

Perhaps, I very much doubt it though. Folks cheated long before commentators.

Just don’t cheat. I think some other sports do have a better idea of sportsmanship.

I think that's due to their rules being stricter and easier to enforce, or better refs, I can't be sure.

 

[Butcher's Coat]

Problem in football is football culture has basically made it part of the game now.

Youll hear commentators say
"He wins the penalty", "hes entitled to go down", he "draws the foul" "its soft, but the defender gave the ref the decsion to make"

Once criticism of cheating becomes the norm, you might see change

And also in the crowd.
Now it is commonplace where I am in the East Stand to hear such moaning and whinging. Even kids under ten are mimicking their parents ffs!
Comments like
"how many times ref"
"that's a yellow card ref"
"that's the 3rd time ref"
Not a peep out of them when we commit a foul.

 

[Redandwhitedust]

Perhaps, I very much doubt it though. Folks cheated long before commentators.

Watch a couple of top flight matches from the 70s. There was no play acting or time wasting.

And surprisingly it seems less injuries. The diving and feigning injuries seemed to come along in the 90s.

I mean there was other forms of unsportsmanlike play in those games. But very little "simulation" or "drawing the foul"

 

[Butcher's Coat]

Watch a couple of top flight matches from the 70s. There was no play acting or time wasting.

And surprisingly it seems less injuries. The diving and feigning injuries seemed to come along in the 90s.

I mean there was other forms of unsportsmanlike play in those games. But very little "simulation" or "drawing the foul"

Klinsmann in the 90's started the ball rolling so to speak.
The influx of foreign coaches since thereon instructing their players to cheat/dive/bend the rules has gone on from there.

 

[Coeus]

Watch a couple of top flight matches from the 70s. There was no play acting or time wasting.

And surprisingly it seems less injuries. The diving and feigning injuries seemed to come along in the 90s.

I mean there was other forms of unsportsmanlike play in those games. But very little "simulation" or "drawing the foul"

Franny Lee, Martin Peeters, there's records of it from 19th century. Its been around forever and when you consider it was played at a pace no longer seen, its just as bad.

Same with this whole conversation tbf, each generation of football fan gets to a certain age where football is no longer the game they once knew, too much cheating etc.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Franny Lee, Martin Peeters, there's records of it from 19th century. Its been around forever and when you consider it was played at a pace no longer seen, its just as bad.

Same with this whole conversation tbf, each generation of football fan gets to a certain age where football is no longer the game they once knew, too much cheating etc.

To me the cheating is bad, buts what worse is the total lack of responsibility and admittance they doing it.

And furthermore the total blame for it that’s put on officials on the field of play.

Players are better than they have been at making dives look like fouls or making out they have been seriously injured from a tackle when they haven’t

It’s extremely difficult from one angle, one look and spilt seconds to decide for a ref in real time to tell the difference between a fair and bad tackle or a dive or a foul.

It’s surely time for the powers of be to rewatch incidents after the game from perfect angles and perfect speeds, take their time and when 100% sure of cheating give lengthy bans.

And clubs be embarrassed and named and shamed when it’s obvious their player has cheated.

Hopefully that would mean less of it going forward and better for all concerned

Expecting it to be cut out by the ref on the field is ridiculously unfair imo.

As just leads to debates and debates about consistency as one time he will have a better view than a other

 

[Coeus]

To me the cheating is bad, buts what worse is the total lack of responsibility and admittance they doing it.

And furthermore the total blame for it that’s put on officials on the field of play.

Players are better than they have been at making dives look like fouls or making out they have been seriously injured from a tackle when they haven’t

It’s extremely difficult from one angle, one look and spilt seconds to decide for a ref in real time to tell the difference between a fair and bad tackle or a dive or a foul.

It’s surely time for the powers of be to rewatch incidents after the game from perfect angles and perfect speeds, take their time and when 100% sure of cheating give lengthy bans.

And clubs be embarrassed and named and shamed when it’s obvious their player has cheated.

Hopefully that would mean less of it going forward and better for all concerned

Expecting it to be cut out by the ref on the field is ridiculously unfair imo.

As just leads to debates and debates about consistency as one time he will have a better view than a other

I understand the sentiment, I just think its largely idealistic and as such, not particularly helpful.

I think what would be is simplified rules in order to take the pressure of referee making judgement calls in a matter of seconds, harsher punishments and retrospective punishment.

But the league won't do that as its a global entertainment product, either way, trialing harsh punishment for time wasting, grappling etc for 1 or 2 match days is counterproductive as is the silliness they continue to make of offside etc.

 

[Maravilla]

The refs have to take a decent chunk of the blame for the amount of diving/playacting there is going on. On the rare occasions that a player is fouled but actually tries to stay on their feet then a foul is hardly ever given no matter how blatant a foul it is.

The Haaland/Gabriel incident the other week is a perfect case in point, Gabriel putting his head in the way he did has been a red card offence for years and almost certainly would have been sent off if Haaland had decided to make a meal of it instead of just shrugging it off.