PSR whinging

[Roose Bolton]

Aston Villa want to be careful aligning themselves with them.

They do. The two of them are pretty much on par atm, but their potential spending power if all checks and balances were removed is galaxies apart. They'd be taking Watkins, Rogers, Tielemans & Konsa off them rather than Ramsey if they got what they seem to be asking for.

 

[YorkMackem]

State-owned clubs being able to throw stupid money around inflates the market for everybody. If every megarich owner can spend whatever they want, what's to stop them just buying up all the best players from every club in the league to prevent any team having a chance to take points off them? Other clubs having to up their own wages simply to tread water is what puts the rest of us out of business.

Don't talk about Chelsea like that

 

[safclav]

This is whats wrong with modern football.

Its about figures rather than ability. I hate the fact that £170m is seen as "buying a 3-0 win".

If (and I don't expect it!) We crept into a European spot on the back of a £170m spend as a newly promoted club we'd have "bought success" while thats just two or three players to an established club thats in the same position.

Pisses me off that. West Ham and everyone else can get fucked all they see is (£170 mil spent) most championship clubs down a fortune to get back into the prem.

We are a very well ran club atm
Not to mention we had the 14th highest wage bill in the championship, spent very little for a championship club, sold 2 assets for over £40 mil and then all the premier league money.

I dont even think we are close to any PSR cap atm.

 

[MustardAndOnions]

State-owned clubs being able to throw stupid money around inflates the market for everybody. If every megarich owner can spend whatever they want, what's to stop them just buying up all the best players from every club in the league to prevent any team having a chance to take points off them? Other clubs having to up their own wages simply to tread water is what puts the rest of us out of business.

This is my point you’re purely saying this as it’s Newcastle involved lets just be honest

 

[oldboy]

Im not wrong you are wrong

Shouldn’t pile club in debt but if KlD wanted to spend his cash on Sunderland he should be able to

it’s purely there to protect the “big teams” it’s the perfect buffer for them which means they’ll never be far away from success

It’s utter nonsense

Your last quote is just wrong it is a closed shop. Someone like Villa did the hard work to get in the CL then had to sell players and now they are back in the pack.

Closed shop, protecting all the sides who want the European super league basically

An owner can choose to spend “his cash” on the here and now transfers, but all those big money transfers are on big money 5 years contracts. Who is on the hook if the owner pulls the plug? The club owes the money not the owner.

The clubs who are complaining about getting there and not being able to kick on are only there in the first place because they’ve overspent. They can’t recoup any of that money and they’re not bringing anywhere near enough from external streams.

You can’t aim for short term success and then complain about past decisions hamstringing you in the long term.

It’s just poor management. Everyone knows the rules going in. The rules are there to protect the long term health of the clubs. The only clubs who are complaining are the clubs who haven’t been smart enough.

Newcastle should have be banking on an eventual Isak windfall, instead they’re behind the eight ball because they haven’t had the foresight to be in a good position when it happens.

We sold our best player three summers in a row and the team improved. That’s nothing to do with PSR, that’s just being a well run club.

The clubs complaining about PSR are clearly not well ran and are the ones who need the rules to protect them the most.

 

[MustardAndOnions]

It's certainly changed from prior to the takeover to now. There's a few reasons for that but the first below being the main reason.

The European Super League was looming and with it, would have brought £100s millions to the clubs just for joining and then £100s more millions being part of it. The mags with mega rich owners would have got an invite for sure.

The ESL died a death when the clubs pulled out and then UEFA completely changed the Champions League into the league format. This allows the big European teams to have a better chance of progressing into knockout stages as they have more games to do it over.

The tighter restrictions on Associated Party Transactions also put a spanner in the works. The same for selling players between clubs as UEFA etc are now watching clubs.

UEFA changing the FFP to reduce the spending on players fees/wages etc to 70% of revenue so even harder now to piss money on players.

Going back to the ESL, that would have been big revenue guaranteed and a great return on investment for PIF but now they only path to big money is Champions League. The problem being there are only 4 places. Since 2004/05 only Leicester got into Champions League before the mags did it in 2023 and Villa in 2024. The mags got in last season thanks to the extra place last season but that place won't always be there.

There's now a small chance of getting Champions League and the riches it brings but also the global exposure. For PIF to throw big money at the mags is a big gamble as there's no guarantee of a return as the ESL is long gone now and Man Utd & Spurs won't always be struggling so will rejoin the 'big 6' positions at the top.

PIF are now just running the mags sustainably but they're already at the limit of spending. This Champions League has allowed them a bit more spending as the player fees will be split over coming seasons. However if they fail to get CL again then they will do the same again and barely bring in any new players. That is unless they sell players which they haven't really done.
As you see, all the clubs in Europe (Chelsea aside as they got fined and will be banned if they don't reduce it) are now at 70% wages to revenue to avoid fines from UEFA and their FFP rules.

Note the 68% for the mags as it shows they can't afford to pay extra wages to Isak and upset the wage bill so they have very little wiggle room. If they fail to get Champions League again then it could end up costly for them with regards buying new players.

See above as the ESL isn't happening any time soon as the threat of that died down when the Champions League changed. If the ESL is talked about again then UEFA will simply change the Champions League again. They may well split it into 2 leagues in time allowing more teams to qualify, who knows but it will evolve for sure.

As for PSR, it's not purely there to protect the big clubs at all. It was put there to protect clubs from owners overspending and then bailing leaving the club in the shit. It just so happens that because of the growth of football globally since 2013 means that the revenue for the big clubs has grown more than the remaining clubs due to only Leicester City ever breaking into the big money Champions League.

It’s basically meant that even when the bigger clubs are absolutely f***ing useless they still have a massive competitive advantage

Sorry like it’s just bollocks and half the posts on this thread are about the mags, which says it all, I’ve absolutely no interest in them at all

Because of this rule we can’t really dream about ever winning the league or sustained CL football as we will never have the revenue to do it under these rules

 

[Roose Bolton]

This is my point you’re purely saying this as it’s Newcastle involved lets just be honest

So why are you so keen for our rivals to be able to buy the league? If your only interest is seeing Sunderland do well, we never will in that system as we'll never be owned by a state.

Because of this rule we can’t really dream about ever winning the league or sustained CL football as we will never have the revenue to do it under these rules

We'll never do that under the system you're advocating as the clubs owned by countries can just take all our best players whenever they like by offering them 5M a week.

 

[oldboy]

So why are you so keen for our rivals to be able to buy the league? If your only interest is seeing Sunderland do well, we never will in that system as we'll never be owned by a state.

We'll never do that under the system you're advocating as the clubs owned by countries can just take all our best players whenever they like by offering them 5M a week.

Pull down the entire framework and hope one day we get a richer owner is a bizarre argument.

There also has to be some perspective. Man Utd always had an “unfair” advantage when clubs we’re mostly reliant on ticket sales because they had the biggest stadium. Now they have an “unfair” advantage because they have a global reach and have the financial benefits that brings.

The big clubs have always been big and most likely to win out. Football is now like it always has been, a food chain. We’ll always be likely to be able to take a player we want from Wycombe, the same way Man Utd will always be likely to take a player they want from us.

 

[MustardAndOnions]

So why are you so keen for our rivals to be able to buy the league? If your only interest is seeing Sunderland do well, we never will in that system as we'll never be owned by a state.

We'll never do that under the system you're advocating as the clubs owned by countries can just take all our best players whenever they like by offering them 5M a week.

Not necessarily at all, plenty of other players to buy

This system factually hinders ambition like it just does

Any you wouldn’t be saying any of this if it wasn’t for Newcastle
I don’t care about them and neither should yoi
Kind of sums up what’s wrong with some Sunderland fans, obsessed with them up the road

 

[Redandwhitedust]

Not necessarily at all, plenty of other players to buy

This system factually hinders ambition like it just does

Any you wouldn’t be saying any of this if it wasn’t for Newcastle
I don’t care about them and neither should yoi
Kind of sums up what’s wrong with some Sunderland fans, obsessed with them up the road

Only if ambition = throwing money at transfers in the hope that it will work and youl ll make a quick buck, but knowing you can walk away if it doesnt

If your ambition is investing in young players and selling to reinvest, expanding your fanbase and growing youth teams, stadia and facilities as part of a long term investment in a team?

PSR shouldn't be an issue

 

[MustardAndOnions]

Only if ambition = throwing money at transfers in the hope that it will work and youl ll make a quick buck, but knowing you can walk away if it doesnt

If your ambition is investing in young players and selling to reinvest, expanding your fanbase and growing youth teams, stadia and facilities as part of a long term investment in a team?

PSR shouldn't be an issue

You’ll still be prevented from kicking on. Like you just wouldn’t be saying this is if we were in villa’s position like

 

[Roose Bolton]

Not necessarily at all, plenty of other players to buy

This system factually hinders ambition like it just does

Any you wouldn’t be saying any of this if it wasn’t for Newcastle
I don’t care about them and neither should yoi
Kind of sums up what’s wrong with some Sunderland fans, obsessed with them up the road

There won't necessarily be plenty of other players to buy, because under your system a country can just spend what they want, so why not just buy the 50 or 100 best players in the league & let the majority piss about in the reserves? You're advocating a weird ultra-libertarian free market on steroids approach where clubs that have a vastly disproportionate financial advantage (way more of a financial advantage than PSR creates, btw) can just blow away the competition year after year, apparently just to prove how unbothered you are about the mags.

I don't like the mags, they're our rivals. I live amongst them and have had to live with their obnoxious arrogance for the past 4 years, so no, I don't fancy putting that on steroids and experiencing it every year for decades. If you see that as a "gotcha" fine, but I'm going to call bullshit on your claim to just want to see Sunderland do well, because under the rules you're arguing for we're more likely to be wound up than compete for trophies.

 

[Martinez73]

Not necessarily at all, plenty of other players to buy

This system factually hinders ambition like it just does

Any you wouldn’t be saying any of this if it wasn’t for Newcastle
I don’t care about them and neither should yoi
Kind of sums up what’s wrong with some Sunderland fans, obsessed with them up the road

Obsessed? You’re the one mentioning Newcastle the last few posts you’ve made on this thread.

PSR is to protect the smaller clubs as well. In fact it probably protects them most. Saves some owner coming in and spunking a load of cash, pissing off and leaving said club in trouble. If this scenario happened at the likes of Stoke they’d be knackered as they’d struggle for a buyer. If this scenario happened at Man Utd they’d be fine as there would be no shortage of buyers.

 

[G Force]

The mags net spend this summer is around the same as ours. 115m Euros

The whinging knackers

 

[Ilios]

The rules are an improvement over the old FFP ones, but it is a concern that it just entrenches the established "top" clubs given their absurdly large incomes, see Liverpool being able to spend half a billion this year if they wanted to.

Not sure how you'd solve that though while still ensuring clubs aim for sustainability, I think you'd have to artificially cap spending which clubs would never go for.

They haven't though. As it stands Liverpool have a net spend of around £120m. They've sold over 220m-worth of players.

The issue that Forest had, is that they've made losses every year for the last few years. When they came up they spent about 180m and made no notable sales. It was all expenditure. They year after they made a 50m loss, the year after a 20m loss, and this summer so far another 50m loss.

Obviously that doesn't tell the whole story in terms of amortisation etc. However, they had a massive initial outlay 3 years ago, and recouped nothing, and they haven't had any seasons where they haven't continued making a loss (at least on face value, I could be well off in terms of PSR allowances to be fair).

We've spent a load of money this summer, but we've also sold Jobe, Watson and Ekwah to the tune of 45m+. We've also been run incredibly sustainably for years, and had a promotion on the back of 2 years of a virtually zero net spend.

I'm fully prepared that this window will come back to bite us if we don't offset future spending with more high-ticket sales. That's just the way of the game, you have to cut your cloth.

 

[Select coaches]

I’m not even sure how these PSR rules are legal, in any other world a company can spend its money how it sees fit. If an owner wants to fund losses it’s their prerogative.

 

[Redandwhitedust]

You’ll still be prevented from kicking on. Like you just wouldn’t be saying this is if we were in villa’s position like

The whole economic model of football is crazy.

The Saudis spent £300m buying a club, including stadium, facilities players and image.

They want half of that for one player a few years later

It doesnt add up. PSR isn't perfect but its an attempt to stop the finances of football spiralling out of control and clubs overspending and going pop.

It needs reform but its better than the alternatives

 

[Martinez73]

I’m not even sure how these PSR rules are legal, in any other world a company can spend its money how it sees fit. If an owner wants to fund losses it’s their prerogative.

And if the owner effs off leaving the club with millions of debt? And the club ends up going out of business?

It’s not just any other company, it can be a community, an institution, an escape for thousands of people every week.

 

[lichtiemike]

Mags moaning about PSR in the same week they’ve dropped £75m on new players is wild.

 

[YorkMackem]

On the subject of PSR. a pundit labelled Xhaka as being worth 12 points per season to us.