Jack Clarke

[MurtonMark]

You said Le Bris was a disaster appointment - apparently he has no experience at senior level. Speakman is a con merchant doing a shocking job. You know zip about football - but apparently good at quotation marks!

I was as reticent about Le Bris as pretty much everyone else, and - as you’ve helpfully pointed out - I deferred to the French football experts on the media rounds as to what we might expect. Of course we’re only two games in and nobody has any idea if he’ll be a success here, but I have explicitly said over the last fortnight - on this board - how positive his start has been and how well coached the team has looked in the first two games.

I do believe that Speakman is a bullshitter and a charlatan, yes. That is my view and I’ve explained the reasons why many times, with reference to what he’s said, and/or what he’s done.

So again - why are you making things up, which I’ve never actually said?

 

[Vore]

Said this before, £25m and he’ll be off. It’s the model, buy cheap, sell high.
Que sera

Oh shit is he off?
*he's not

 

[Secret Visage]

You said Le Bris was a disaster appointment - apparently he has no experience at senior level. Speakman is a con merchant doing a shocking job. You know zip about football - but apparently good at quotation marks!

Murton Mag.

 

[MurtonMark]

It's just a list. No context, nothing about how many of the early signings mentioned helped us progress, what they cost, how much we recouped, almost all have, or might well in the future serve a purpose, or may even do well for us.

It’s a list of bad signings. And it’s a lot longer than the list of the good ones.

“Might well serve a purpose in the future” isn’t a phrase many people would add to their own CV.

Why no Clarke, no Roberts, no Jobe, no Mayenda, no Hume, no Huggins, no Ballard, no Ekwah, no Cirkin, no Alese, and given even loans have to feature to prove his point no Amad?

See the post I was replying to (including for the context you seem to have wilfully ignored).

Half the first eleven have been signed for buttons by the people currently in charge and the rest have progressed nicely under their tutelage.

So for every 20+ players we sign, half an eleven make the grade. Got it. What a success story.

Club and staff value has increased massively, our academy is looking good, one or two major prospects, a couple more that could well make the grade but yes, let's show ambition and set fire to it, sack them all.

Who is “them” in that sentence, and who has advocated “sacking them all”?

We've moved forward since the staff he so obviously loathes came to the club, no question about that for me.

1. Correlation is not causation. Just ask Alex Neil and Tony Mowbray.

2. How did last season’s “moving forward” work out for you?

 

[Father Larry Duff]

Genuinely feel sick at the thought of Clarke leaving. We will really struggle without him.
And if it is Ipswich a team that was a league below us just over a year ago just pisses me off

It’s not quite on the scale and sheer devastation of Marco to Crystal Palace but I’d still be pissed off with this one.

 

[safcyank]

Anderson - 23 - little to no fee - squad filler player
Hjelde - 20 - 1.75m - I think he's decent and will come good. People forget his age I think because he looks and carries himself as an older player
Lihaji - PROFIT
Hoffman - loan - was okay
Dajaku - 875k - huge mistake having to buy this kid
Pembele - 20 - 1m - too soon to say, but prospects aren't great at the moment
Rusyn - 25 - 2.5m - Experienced player, still too soon to say if we can recoup investment or if he will come good
Bennette - 1.3m - still too soon to say
Hemir - 19 - 500k - like Pembele, too soon but has been poor
Triantis - 20 - 350k - way too soon to say
Bishop - 20 - squad filler
Matete - 20 - 150k? - squad filler player
Dack - free - old - Tony Mowbray fan club
Bass - free? - squad filler
Styles - loan
Burstow - loan

Above I've added notes of the age at time of transfer and fee for reported for each. These numbers aren't all rock solid because I'm doing this really quick and half of them are guesses from media outlets or ITK rumors.

Given we spend very little on fees and invest mostly in very young players - why are you surprised that there are players who don't pan out or are still early in development? Are Speakman and Co expected to only sign future PL players for under $5 million? Should we not add depth to our squad even if they aren't potential world class players? We were in League One for a while. We have the youngest squad in the Championship by some distance. Context matters.

• Ross Stewart: 350k ---> sold 9m
• Patrick Roberts: Free ----> valued between 2m-5m
• Trai Hume: 240k ----> valued between 5m - 10m
• Cirkin: ? -----> valued between 2m - 7m
• Clark: ? ------> valued between 15m - 25m
• Dan Ballard: 2.3m ----> valued between 8m - 15m
• Aji Alese: 590k ----> too soon, valued around 1m
• Ekwah: ? ---> valued between 5m to 10m
• Mayenda: 800k ----> too soon, but probably will be worth a couple million by end of season if he can get 7 to 9 goals
• Bellingham: 1.5m ----> valued between 10m and 20m?
• Seelt: 2m ----> too soon, high ceiling

And if you're including loans that didn't work out - what about Simms, Diallo, Broadhead?

In past years - here's been our reported spending on transfer fees:
2020-21 - 350k
2021-22 - 240k
2022-23 - 6m (promotion budget)
2023-24 - 12m (sold Stewart, Gooch, Lihadji, Pritchard for somewhere between 12m and 14m)

And so far this window, we've not spent anything on a fee.

I don't understand how people are so negative about our recruitment all the time, when the reality is our return on investment has been very, very good in recent years. I guess they actually just want the owners to splash cash like Ipswich? I wouldn't mind a bit more investment, but if it were my money I'd probably opt for a similar approach. What we've done relative to the lack of paying transfer fees has been excellent. We have gone from having a squad value of around 15m in 20/21 with our most valuable asset being Will Grigg to now being worth around 100m - with Jobe, Rigg, and Neil running our midfield. All while spending very very little on fees and offering wages that are probably less than average in the Championship.

I'd argue that Jack Clarke is the most exciting prospect in UK football , if not European football, with stats to back that up.

Hold your nerve Sunderland!

Errr, settle down now.

 

[Sunderland TID]

Above I've added notes of the age at time of transfer and fee for reported for each. These numbers aren't all rock solid because I'm doing this really quick and half of them are guesses from media outlets or ITK rumors.

Given we spend very little on fees and invest mostly in very young players - why are you surprised that there are players who don't pan out or are still early in development? Are Speakman and Co expected to only sign future PL players for under $5 million? Should we not add depth to our squad even if they aren't potential world class players? We were in League One for a while. We have the youngest squad in the Championship by some distance. Context matters.

• Ross Stewart: 350k ---> sold 9m
• Patrick Roberts: Free ----> valued between 2m-5m
• Trai Hume: 240k ----> valued between 5m - 10m
• Cirkin: ? -----> valued between 2m - 7m
• Clark: ? ------> valued between 15m - 25m
• Dan Ballard: 2.3m ----> valued between 8m - 15m
• Aji Alese: 590k ----> too soon, valued around 1m
• Ekwah: ? ---> valued between 5m to 10m
• Mayenda: 800k ----> too soon, but probably will be worth a couple million by end of season if he can get 7 to 9 goals
• Bellingham: 1.5m ----> valued between 10m and 20m?
• Seelt: 2m ----> too soon, high ceiling

And if you're including loans that didn't work out - what about Simms, Diallo, Broadhead?

In past years - here's been our reported spending on transfer fees:
2020-21 - 350k
2021-22 - 240k
2022-23 - 6m (promotion budget)
2023-24 - 12m (sold Stewart, Gooch, Lihadji, Pritchard for somewhere between 12m and 14m)

And so far this window, we've not spent anything on a fee.

I don't understand how people are so negative about our recruitment all the time, when the reality is our return on investment has been very, very good in recent year. I guess they really just want the owners to splash cash like Ipswich? I wouldn't mind a bit more investment, but if it were my money I'd probably opt for a similar approach. What we've done relative to the lack of paying transfer fees has been excellent. We have gone from having a squad value of around 15m in 20/21 with our most valuable asset being Will Grigg to now being worth around 100m - with Jobe, Rigg, and Neil running our midfield. All while spending very very little on fees and offering wages that are probably less than average in the Championship.

Boom!…..that will take some negative answer to call it shite!…..great post!….. now tin hat on for the replies who simply won’t want to see what you have said!

 

[Birtley Lad]

Murton Mag.

He has to be a mag!!

 

[MurtonMark]

Above I've added notes of the age at time of transfer and fee for reported for each. These numbers aren't all rock solid because I'm doing this really quick and half of them are guesses from media outlets or ITK rumors.

Given we spend very little on fees and invest mostly in very young players - why are you surprised that there are players who don't pan out or are still early in development? Are Speakman and Co expected to only sign future PL players for under $5 million? Should we not add depth to our squad even if they aren't potential world class players? We were in League One for a while. We have the youngest squad in the Championship by some distance. Context matters.

• Ross Stewart: 350k ---> sold 9m
• Patrick Roberts: Free ----> valued between 2m-5m
• Trai Hume: 240k ----> valued between 5m - 10m
• Cirkin: ? -----> valued between 2m - 7m
• Clark: ? ------> valued between 15m - 25m
• Dan Ballard: 2.3m ----> valued between 8m - 15m
• Aji Alese: 590k ----> too soon, valued around 1m
• Ekwah: ? ---> valued between 5m to 10m
• Mayenda: 800k ----> too soon, but probably will be worth a couple million by end of season if he can get 7 to 9 goals
• Bellingham: 1.5m ----> valued between 10m and 20m?
• Seelt: 2m ----> too soon, high ceiling

And if you're including loans that didn't work out - what about Simms, Diallo, Broadhead?

In past years - here's been our reported spending on transfer fees:
2020-21 - 350k
2021-22 - 240k
2022-23 - 6m (promotion budget)
2023-24 - 12m (sold Stewart, Gooch, Lihadji, Pritchard for somewhere between 12m and 14m)

And so far this window, we've not spent anything on a fee.

I don't understand how people are so negative about our recruitment all the time, when the reality is our return on investment has been very, very good in recent years. I guess they actually just want the owners to splash cash like Ipswich? I wouldn't mind a bit more investment, but if it were my money I'd probably opt for a similar approach. What we've done relative to the lack of paying transfer fees has been excellent. We have gone from having a squad value of around 15m in 20/21 with our most valuable asset being Will Grigg to now being worth around 100m - with Jobe, Rigg, and Neil running our midfield. All while spending very very little on fees and offering wages that are probably less than average in the Championship.

Why do certain people keep quoting ages as if a bad signing is a good one, if the bad player happens to be young? That argument would hold if these were players signed for the development squad. But they’re not are they?

And what sort of argument - such as it is - opens with - “[this isnt] rock solid because I'm doing this really quick and half of them are guesses from media outlets or ITK rumors.”?

You’re another one though who has revealed the problem in the tone and language of your post. The “model” PR machine has so many people talking in terms of development of assets, “return on investment” etc - instead of in terms of team/squad building, it’s unbelievable.

There is NOT going to be a “net spend” league table. Nobody is going to get promoted on the basis of how much potential their ineffectual signings might hypothetically have in a future dreamworld, if things go right.

 

[Vore]

Above I've added notes of the age at time of transfer and fee for reported for each. These numbers aren't all rock solid because I'm doing this really quick and half of them are guesses from media outlets or ITK rumors.

Given we spend very little on fees and invest mostly in very young players - why are you surprised that there are players who don't pan out or are still early in development? Are Speakman and Co expected to only sign future PL players for under $5 million? Should we not add depth to our squad even if they aren't potential world class players? We were in League One for a while. We have the youngest squad in the Championship by some distance. Context matters.

• Ross Stewart: 350k ---> sold 9m
• Patrick Roberts: Free ----> valued between 2m-5m
• Trai Hume: 240k ----> valued between 5m - 10m
• Cirkin: ? -----> valued between 2m - 7m
• Clark: ? ------> valued between 15m - 25m
• Dan Ballard: 2.3m ----> valued between 8m - 15m
• Aji Alese: 590k ----> too soon, valued around 1m
• Ekwah: ? ---> valued between 5m to 10m
• Mayenda: 800k ----> too soon, but probably will be worth a couple million by end of season if he can get 7 to 9 goals
• Bellingham: 1.5m ----> valued between 10m and 20m?
• Seelt: 2m ----> too soon, high ceiling

And if you're including loans that didn't work out - what about Simms, Diallo, Broadhead?

In past years - here's been our reported spending on transfer fees:
2020-21 - 350k
2021-22 - 240k
2022-23 - 6m (promotion budget)
2023-24 - 12m (sold Stewart, Gooch, Lihadji, Pritchard for somewhere between 12m and 14m)

And so far this window, we've not spent anything on a fee.

I don't understand how people are so negative about our recruitment all the time, when the reality is our return on investment has been very, very good in recent years. I guess they actually just want the owners to splash cash like Ipswich? I wouldn't mind a bit more investment, but if it were my money I'd probably opt for a similar approach. What we've done relative to the lack of paying transfer fees has been excellent. We have gone from having a squad value of around 15m in 20/21 with our most valuable asset being Will Grigg to now being worth around 100m - with Jobe, Rigg, and Neil running our midfield. All while spending very very little on fees and offering wages that are probably less than average in the Championship.

Errr, settle down now.

If Aji keeps fit for 20 games straight he's £15+

The Beale/BCB shit-show, combined with reticence to get a striker in has been understandably left folk somewhere between frustrated and furious, but end of the day even factoring that in the bunch in charge have done a remarkable job.

Why do certain people keep quoting ages as if a bad signing is a good one, if the bad player happens to be young? That argument would hold if these were players signed for the development squad. But they’re not are they?

And what sort of argument - such as it is - opens with - “[this isnt] rock solid because I'm doing this really quick and half of them are guesses from media outlets or ITK rumors.”?

They were just quickly but with evidence pointing out how rapidly our squad has gone from ~15m value to ~100m value with little output, good business.

 

[Safc98]

Good for you.

I want us to be promoted. And to look like we want to be promoted.

Play off final is a route to promotion. I’d also say giving our best players new contracts is a sign of intent. Sadly if a club higher up pays a price then what can you do. Literally about 3 clubs in world football immune from that.

 

[MurtonMark]

They were just quickly but with evidence pointing out how rapidly our squad has gone from ~15m value to ~100m value with little output, good business.

Again - it depends on what you think the priority is.

Personally, I support a football team not a balance sheet.

By the logic quoted to me in recent posts - if Jack Clarke leaves it’ll be a good thing, because of “investment return”. Regardless of the fact that the quality of our team and our chances of promotion will have dropped significantly. Sorry, but for me that’s not a good thing at all.

 

[0321safc]

Where do we even begin to look to replacing him, some 19 year old Le Havre winger who may be half decent in 7 years time?

 

[---Nemo---]

It’s a list of bad signings. And it’s a lot longer than the list of the good ones.

“Might well serve a purpose in the future” isn’t a phrase many people would add to their own CV.



See the post I was replying to (including for the context you seem to have wilfully ignored).



So for every 20+ players we sign, half an eleven make the grade. Got it. What a success story.



Who is “them” in that sentence, and who has advocated “sacking them all”?



1. Correlation is not causation. Just ask Alex Neil and Tony Mowbray.

2. How did last season’s “moving forward” work out for you?

More piffle. A list of "bad" signings indeed. As usual you're begging the question, assuming the truth of your conclusion without offering any supporting evidence via premises. It's a logical fallacy.

In your opinion, when you're having to revamp the squad quickly and buying low cost youngsters you believe have potential what sort of long term success rate would you consider to be acceptable?

 

[Vore]

Again - it depends on what you think the priority is.

Personally, I support a football team not a balance sheet.

By the logic quoted to me in recent posts - if Jack Clarke leaves it’ll be a good thing, because of “investment return”. Regardless of the fact that the quality of our team and our chances of promotion will have dropped significantly, sorry, but for me that’s not a good thing at all.

Suspect you're debating an imagined opinion to a degree, this is a board full of SAFC fans I don't think anyone wants to see us languish.
The balance sheet is unavoidably important though, you can't bypass The Regs with passion.

 

[Qwerty]

This is why I'm relaxed, lad is visibly happy. It's not like the old days when that move meant financial security, he's already done the big PL move as a teen and has more money now that most of us will ever earn. In a world where money means fuck all, the one these kids are in, then our passion and big crowd is a pure draw.
I'd see my above post as a bit of a joke if Ballard, Rigg, Jobe, Cirkin etc didn't seem to agree.

He'll be desperate to play in the PL imo.
Perform well there and he moves to a club higher up the food chain.
I'd be amazed if he's here in September.

 

[abbs]

Clarke mite not want to goto Ipswich even if we accept a bid ,
let's just see what happens

 

[MurtonMark]

More piffle. A list of "bad" signings indeed. As usual you're begging the question, assuming the truth of your conclusion without offering any supporting evidence via premises. It's a logical fallacy.

In your opinion, when you're having to revamp the squad quickly and buying low cost youngsters you believe have potential what sort of long term success rate would you consider to be acceptable?

Putting aside your misuse of the term “logical fallacy”, I can offer plenty of supporting evidence to support my premise.

All of those players I listed have been seen in a Sunderland shirt. Most for a fair old chunk of games. None are good enough. It’s a (long) list of demonstrably bad signings.

And “well they may come good at some point in the future” doesn’t hold as a counter-point, because these were NOT players signed for the academy/development squads. Every single one of them was signed as a first team footballer, and went in to the first team squad.

And to your second point - I simply dont accept the premise that we “have to….sign low cost youngsters”. So the rest is inconsequential.

 

[---Nemo---]

Putting aside your misuse of the term “logical fallacy”, I can offer plenty of supporting evidence to support my premise.

All of those players I listed have been seen on a Sunderland shirt. None are good enough. It’s a (long) list of demonstrably bad signings.

And “well they may come good at some point in the future” doesn’t hold as a counter-point, because these were NOT players signed for the academy/development squads. Every single one of them was signed as a first team footballer, and went in to the first team squad.

And to your second point - I simply dont accept the premise that we “have to….sign low cost youngsters”. So the rest is inconsequential.

 

[Father Larry Duff]

No disrespect to Ipswich who are a decent club but if I was Clarke and making a decision at 23 to leave for the premier league I’d want something more than Ipswich.