NUFC/Sportswashing - Summer 2022

[derum]

The clip is 94, and the super league was talked about even back then. Probably just coincidence they used Barcelona for the clip rather than any of the other European big names.

It was a prediction, nothing more, they got everything wrong in the timeframe they were talking about, like a football “tomorrows world”
John Hall was good with his “European supper league”, odd that he didn’t call it “geordie tv” though.

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Very interesting video from the 90s not lease for John Hall introducing Newcastle v Barcelona in the European super league the same John Hall who was outraged at the thought of it last year when it wasn’t going to include them.

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More of the video here though the beginning is missing. I'm not sure how anyone can believe Hall was talking about an actual game in that Tw@tter video as it was clearly him 'acting' You see in the video below he was right at the start and again at around 1 min 51 secs with the same clobber on.

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[MidnightRoker]

Jesus christ.Come on then

Hey, I said give me a few minutes, cool your jets.

Firstly, I’m conflicted about whether it should have been allowed or not. Because a sovereign wealth fund doesn’t inherently mean state ownership. For example if a country’s state pension fund bought a stake in a club purely intending to see a return would that be state interference? No, because they are ran by fund managers looking for monetary value not political value. The issue with the Saudi fund is that it’s impossible to know if that separation is really in place as the Premier League obviously can’t ever know for sure. But the fact is, that legally on paper the Saudi state DON’T own Newcastle, and technicalities like that are what’s important in business transactions not optics or assumptions about the practice of such an arrangement. Sovereign wealth funds owning clubs should have been banned in the rules of the league to avoid situations like this with grey areas of ownership, but it’s too late now, the horse has bolted and it’s the league’s fault (unless Boris made them allow it to complete).

As for the moral aspect, that’s an incredibly difficult subject and too many on both sides are oversimplifying the situation. Firstly I’ll qualify that I’m fully against the homophobia, human rights abuses, second class status of women and all other aspects of Saudi life that we in the UK find reprehensible by our standards. But therein lies the problem, they are OUR standards. What do we call it when we push our beliefs ideals and standards on another sovereign nation? Colonialism? Xenophobia? Think about it from the other perspective, have you read any scare stories about establishing Sharia law in areas of the UK, how did you feel about that? I would prefer to see full democracy, secularism and robust human rights in every country in the world, but does that make me a globalist? Another dirty word. Fact is, you should leave sovereign counties to do their own thing, if they want to make their country an awful repressive place to live, that’s their problem and we should’ve learned by now that interfering just causes huge problems (Afghanistan anyone?). Vote with your wallet if you don’t want to contribute to a regime that does things you don’t like, but getting high and mighty over other people who give money to a UK ally, just puts you on shaky ground and wide open to accusations of hypocrisy if you are inconsistent (like for example if you buy something made in China where they have concentration camps, and who are ostensibly a UK adversary).

As for Yemen, that seems to be a stick used to beat Newcastle fans with, but many (on both sides) don’t seem to actually know what is happening there. Sunderland fans who act like it’s a Russia Ukraine situation are wrong, but Newcastle fans that defend it while thinking the same are actually MORE wrong. It isn’t one Sovereign nation attacking another, it is a coalition headed by SA attempting to put down a civil war in Yemen at the invitation of the legitimate Yemeni government as recognised by the UN Security Council (of which the UK is a permanent member) so on the one side you have the Saudis and a large coalition of various countries that are generally considered (comparatively) more moderate westernised Muslim nations, backed and armed by UK US and various European allies. And on the other side you have the Houthi rebels who are the stereotypical ‘death to the west’ Islamic extremists, backed by Iran, Syria and rumour has it North Korea. Now there’s a discussion to be had that the collateral damage is unacceptable and SA bombing tactics are unethical, but they are using bombs we sell them, so when you talk about Yemeni kids dying should that criticism be directed at football fans rather than politicians? Did we not do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan? I’m from an armed forces family, my brother used to attach bombs to jets at camp Bastion and I’m sure everyone on here knows at least someone who has done a tour or two, so are we throwing stones in glass house by complaining about UK bombs dropped by UK allies?

I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow and the takeover should never have happened as politics and football don’t mix well, but the fact is that if you support the Houthi rebels against the UN rubber stamped SA intervention then you support a group whose slogan is:

“God is the greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Cursed be the Jews, Victory to Islam".

If you’ve accidentally stood up for that group then maybe, just maybe you’ve let football tribalism affect your judgement, because I honestly don’t believe either Newcastle fans or Sunderland fans support Islamic fundamentalism. At least not the ones in my family or friends.

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

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[MidnightRoker]

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Did you deliberately use a gif of someone who also bought a club for alleged reputation improvement reasons, or is that irony totally lost on you?

 

[derum]

Hey, I said give me a few minutes, cool your jets.

Firstly, I’m conflicted about whether it should have been allowed or not. Because a sovereign wealth fund doesn’t inherently mean state ownership. For example if a country’s state pension fund bought a stake in a club purely intending to see a return would that be state interference? No, because they are ran by fund managers looking for monetary value not political value. The issue with the Saudi fund is that it’s impossible to know if that separation is really in place as the Premier League obviously can’t ever know for sure. But the fact is, that legally on paper the Saudi state DON’T own Newcastle, and technicalities like that are what’s important in business transactions not optics or assumptions about the practice of such an arrangement. Sovereign wealth funds owning clubs should have been banned in the rules of the league to avoid situations like this with grey areas of ownership, but it’s too late now, the horse has bolted and it’s the league’s fault (unless Boris made them allow it to complete).

As for the moral aspect, that’s an incredibly difficult subject and too many on both sides are oversimplifying the situation. Firstly I’ll qualify that I’m fully against the homophobia, human rights abuses, second class status of women and all other aspects of Saudi life that we in the UK find reprehensible by our standards. But therein lies the problem, they are OUR standards. What do we call it when we push our beliefs ideals and standards on another sovereign nation? Colonialism? Xenophobia? Think about it from the other perspective, have you read any scare stories about establishing Sharia law in areas of the UK, how did you feel about that? I would prefer to see full democracy, secularism and robust human rights in every country in the world, but does that make me a globalist? Another dirty word. Fact is, you should leave sovereign counties to do their own thing, if they want to make their country an awful repressive place to live, that’s their problem and we should’ve learned by now that interfering just causes huge problems (Afghanistan anyone?). Vote with your wallet if you don’t want to contribute to a regime that does things you don’t like, but getting high and mighty over other people who give money to a UK ally, just puts you on shaky ground and wide open to accusations of hypocrisy if you are inconsistent (like for example if you buy something made in China where they have concentration camps, and who are ostensibly a UK adversary).

As for Yemen, that seems to be a stick used to beat Newcastle fans with, but many (on both sides) don’t seem to actually know what is happening there. Sunderland fans who act like it’s a Russia Ukraine situation are wrong, but Newcastle fans that defend it while thinking the same are actually MORE wrong. It isn’t one Sovereign nation attacking another, it is a coalition headed by SA attempting to put down a civil war in Yemen at the invitation of the legitimate Yemeni government as recognised by the UN Security Council (of which the UK is a permanent member) so on the one side you have the Saudis and a large coalition of various countries that are generally considered (comparatively) more moderate westernised Muslim nations, backed and armed by UK US and various European allies. And on the other side you have the Houthi rebels who are the stereotypical ‘death to the west’ Islamic extremists, backed by Iran, Syria and rumour has it North Korea. Now there’s a discussion to be had that the collateral damage is unacceptable and SA bombing tactics are unethical, but they are using bombs we sell them, so when you talk about Yemeni kids dying should that criticism be directed at football fans rather than politicians? Did we not do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan? I’m from an armed forces family, my brother used to attach bombs to jets at camp Bastion and I’m sure everyone on here knows at least someone who has done a tour or two, so are we throwing stones in glass house by complaining about UK bombs dropped by UK allies?

I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow and the takeover should never have happened as politics and football don’t mix well, but the fact is that if you support the Houthi rebels against the UN rubber stamped SA intervention then you support a group whose slogan is:

“God is the greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Cursed be the Jews, Victory to Islam".

If you’ve accidentally stood up for that group then maybe, just maybe you’ve let football tribalism affect your judgement, because I honestly don’t believe either Newcastle fans or Sunderland fans support Islamic fundamentalism. At least not the ones in my family or friends.

All of that is utter bollocks, you have obviously been brainwashed, never mind sportswashed.
You need to read this:

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and then this:

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[MidnightRoker]

All of that is utter bollocks, you have obviously been brainwashed, never mind sportswashed.
You need to read this:

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and then this:

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You either didn’t properly read or understand what I wrote or you didn’t properly read those links. As absolutely nothing there conflicts with what I said.

 

[C0nflict]

Pretty much my prediction all along. How long until her husband has to leave Twitter?

it will vary from fan to fan but even the most level headed fan deep down secretly thinks they will be challenging and signing superstars. Sabre may only attach a 5% prob on this but some idiots will be 100%. Against that enough will never be enough and it will be glorious watching it unfurl.

How on earth would you know? Or is it what you will be if it happened to Sunderland?

 

[derum]

You either didn’t properly read or understand what I wrote or you didn’t properly read those links. As absolutely nothing there conflicts with what I said.

Everything in those links conflicts with your posted ramblings. And obviously from the time I posted them to the time you responded, you did not read them.

You try to claim that the state investment fund is separate from the actual state because it has fund managers……. Who authorises the funds that those managers request?
You state that legally, on paper, the Saudi state does not own NUFC, that is patently false, when the entity that owns 80% of NUFC is 100% owned by the Saudi government.
Your attempt to minimise the actions of the Saudi regime by saying that we have no right to push our ideals onto another country, is pitiful considering that is what Saudi are doing in Yemen. I suggest you read about Saleh and how the Saudi’s started the war in Yemen, and then the Saudi’s usurped the peace process initiated by the GCC because it did not suit their agenda.

The UN has not “rubber stamped” Saudi intervention. The United Nations’ systematic failure to take positive steps to hold the Saudi-led coalition responsible is because it is subject to the nation-states it represents and dependent on their funds. Saudi, for instance, was able to force the United Nations to

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the Saudi-led coalition from the annual UN “list of shame” for violations against children in Yemen. The withdrawal supposedly came after Saudi threatened to pull hundreds of millions of dollars in assistance to the United Nations

As for this little gem of a statement from you: “God is the greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Cursed be the Jews, Victory to Islam” was that what the 15 Saudi nationals were shouting as they flew planes into buildings in 2001?

As I said, Brainwashed and sportswashed.

 

[MidnightRoker]

Everything in those links conflicts with your posted ramblings. And obviously from the time I posted them to the time you responded, you did not read them.

You try to claim that the state investment fund is separate from the actual state because it has fund managers……. Who authorises the funds that those managers request?
You state that legally, on paper, the Saudi state does not own NUFC, that is patently false, when the entity that owns 80% of NUFC is 100% owned by the Saudi government.
Your attempt to minimise the actions of the Saudi regime by saying that we have no right to push our ideals onto another country, is pitiful considering that is what Saudi are doing in Yemen. I suggest you read about Saleh and how the Saudi’s started the war in Yemen, and then the Saudi’s usurped the peace process initiated by the GCC because it did not suit their agenda.

The UN has not “rubber stamped” Saudi intervention. The United Nations’ systematic failure to take positive steps to hold the Saudi-led coalition responsible is because it is subject to the nation-states it represents and dependent on their funds. Saudi, for instance, was able to force the United Nations to

You must be logged on to see external links

the Saudi-led coalition from the annual UN “list of shame” for violations against children in Yemen. The withdrawal supposedly came after Saudi threatened to pull hundreds of millions of dollars in assistance to the United Nations

As for this little gem of a statement from you: “God is the greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Cursed be the Jews, Victory to Islam” was that what the 15 Saudi nationals were shouting as they flew planes into buildings in 2001?

As I said, Brainwashed and sportswashed.

I did read them, reading is not difficult for me.

Whereas your reading comprehension is bad, as I literally said the premier league would never be able to separate the PIF from the Saudi state in reality. But they gave legal assurances regarding separation, so whether we believe it is bulls**t or not, or most likely unenforceable changes nothing about what I said.

At no point did I minimise their actions. Don’t just make things up.

‘Rubber-stamped’ might be hyperbole, call it tacit approval, complicity or whatever you like but my points still stand. It’s a civil war where SA are on the same side as the UN on paper.

That’s not a statement by me, as I said, that’s a Houthi slogan, that they literally put on their flags

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You’re just burying your head in the sand here at this point, and comparing them to Al-Qaeda is just lazy ignorance, as they are Sunni and Houthi are Shia.

I’m not brainwashed I’m just able to see things pragmatically that really it’s none of our f**king business and we (as in our government) wouldn’t give a f**k if there wasn’t oil to be bought and weapons to be sold.

As for sportswashing, it’s always confused me as to why people are so against that. SA are bullies and anyone who knows anything about bullies knows that positive reinforcement works better than punishment. To cleanse your reputation you can’t just carry on doing bad stuff, you need to at least keep up a pretence of improving. If SA’s efforts to reform their image and MBS’ efforts to westernise fail because people push back then what exactly is their incentive? Do you want to take power away from MBS because he green lit the death of a journalist and hand it over to his hardliner peers waiting in the wings to roll back any and all steps towards westernisation? Have we genuinely learned nothing from history when it comes to the unintended consequences of regime change?

 

[Deleted member 1169]

I did read them, reading is not difficult for me.

Whereas your reading comprehension is bad, as I literally said the premier league would never be able to separate the PIF from the Saudi state in reality. But they gave legal assurances regarding separation, so whether we believe it is bulls**t or not, or most likely unenforceable changes nothing about what I said.

At no point did I minimise their actions. Don’t just make things up.

‘Rubber-stamped’ might be hyperbole, call it tacit approval, complicity or whatever you like but my points still stand. It’s a civil war where SA are on the same side as the UN on paper.

That’s not a statement by me, as I said, that’s a Houthi slogan, that they literally put on their flags

You must be logged on to see external links

You’re just burying your head in the sand here at this point, and comparing them to Al-Qaeda is just lazy ignorance, as they are Sunni and Houthi are Shia.

I’m not brainwashed I’m just able to see things pragmatically that really it’s none of our f**king business and we (as in our government) wouldn’t give a f**k if there wasn’t oil to be bought and weapons to be sold.

As for sportswashing, it’s always confused me as to why people are so against that. SA are bullies and anyone who knows anything about bullies knows that positive reinforcement works better than punishment. To cleanse your reputation you can’t just carry on doing bad stuff, you need to at least keep up a pretence of improving. If SA’s efforts to reform their image and MBS’ efforts to westernise fail because people push back then what exactly is their incentive? Do you want to take power away from MBS because he green lit the death of a journalist and hand it over to his hardliner peers waiting in the wings to roll back any and all steps towards westernisation? Have we genuinely learned nothing from history when it comes to the unintended consequences of regime change?

Did you get your exam results yet from the Big Market School of Middle Eastern Geo Politics.....i'd fail you with a wiki reference.

New member...usual back story....run along. You are as boring as The Fish and that really takes some doing.

 

[MidnightRoker]

Did you get your exam results yet from the Big Market School of Middle Eastern Geo Politics.....i'd fail you with a wiki reference.

New member...usual back story....run along. You are as boring as The Fish and that really takes some doing.

That’s big talk for someone that doesn’t actually bother to dispute anything specifically that I said. Just cognitive dissonance.

I’ve no idea who The Fish is, but I’m not sure exactly what you mean by ‘usual backstory’ are you just making a big assumption there so you can dismiss anything I say and retreat to the safety of what you already believe?

 

[derum]

I did read them, reading is not difficult for me.

Yet you keep proving otherwise.

Whereas your reading comprehension is bad, as I literally said the premier league would never be able to separate the PIF from the Saudi state in reality. But they gave legal assurances regarding separation, so whether we believe it is bulls**t or not, or most likely unenforceable changes nothing about what I said.

You literally did not say that. The Saudi’s have never given legal assurances regarding separation. What they gave was an assurance that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia will not control NUFC. To issue that statement clarifies that there is no separation.

At no point did I minimise their actions. Don’t just make things up.

You used the usual “whataboutery”, which is an act of minimisation.

‘Rubber-stamped’ might be hyperbole, call it tacit approval, complicity or whatever you like but my points still stand. It’s a civil war where SA are on the same side as the UN on paper.

Most of your post is hyperbole. You might want to do some research on the causes of the civil war, from well before 2014, and look at Saudi involvement.

That’s not a statement by me, as I said, that’s a Houthi slogan, that they literally put on their flags

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You must be logged on to see external links

o-one was arguing. Many factions have slogans.

You’re just burying your head in the sand here at this point, and comparing them to Al-Qaeda is just lazy ignorance, as they are Sunni and Houthi are Shia.

I am aware of the religious leanings of Al-Qaeda. You seem to lack understanding of the differences within each branch, as you lump them all together…….
Houthi’s are Zaydi Shiites, or Zaydiyyah. Shiite Muslims are the minority community in the Islamic world and Zaydis are a minority of Shiites, significantly different in doctrine and beliefs from the Shiites who dominate in Iran, Iraq, and elsewhere (often called Twelvers for their belief in twelve Imams).

I’m not brainwashed I’m just able to see things pragmatically that really it’s none of our f**king business and we (as in our government) wouldn’t give a f**k if there wasn’t oil to be bought and weapons to be sold.

Brainwashed. You think you can dismiss Saudi actions in Yemen because it’s “none of our business”. A better solution would be for neutral countries to get involved in the peace process, without pressure from Saudi Arabia.

As for sportswashing, it’s always confused me as to why people are so against that. SA are bullies and anyone who knows anything about bullies knows that positive reinforcement works better than punishment. To cleanse your reputation you can’t just carry on doing bad stuff, you need to at least keep up a pretence of improving. If SA’s efforts to reform their image and MBS’ efforts to westernise fail because people push back then what exactly is their incentive? Do you want to take power away from MBS because he green lit the death of a journalist and hand it over to his hardliner peers waiting in the wings to roll back any and all steps towards westernisation? Have we genuinely learned nothing from history when it comes to the unintended consequences of regime change?

Nothing more needs to be said, you are confused on so many levels.

 

[Deleted member 48353]

Jesus, it’s like Kildare has joined the skunks pages and has learnt how to spell

 

[MidnightRoker]

You literally did not say that. The Saudi’s have never given legal assurances regarding separation. What they gave was an assurance that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia will not control NUFC. To issue that statement clarifies that there is no separation.

A distinction with no difference. I said “The issue with the Saudi fund is that it’s impossible to know if that separation is really in place as the Premier League obviously can’t ever know for sure” you’re arguing with me by using the point I made. You obviously just carelessly quickly read and dismissed my post.

You used the usual “whataboutery”, which is an act of minimisation.

Whataboutery is when you bring up something to distract. I brought up the issues with SA myself so it’s hardly that. I mentioned other things for context to frame the situation in a way that is less hypocritical. That’s not minimisation. My issues with the ethics of SA can be still be part of a bigger picture. Because the world is not black & white and nothing happens in a vacuum.

Brainwashed. You think you can dismiss Saudi actions in Yemen because it’s “none of our business”. A better solution would be for neutral countries to get involved in the peace process, without pressure from Saudi Arabia.

That would be a better solution, but that’s not the reality of the situation so you’re wasting your time even thinking about that. The reality boils down to it being a proxy war between KSA and Iran at this stage. And no matter what you say you’re never going to convince me that we aren’t better off allied with the side opposing Iran no matter how distasteful an alliance may be. Geo Politics isn’t as simple as good vs evil, and the UK is not that many generations ahead of KSA in terms of homophobia, women’s rights, capital punishment etc and attacking other countries is much more recent in our history. Maybe the world (and this forum) would do better leading by example than telling people what they should do. The casual racism I’ve seen on here like people using terms like ‘camel jockey’ and ‘head choppers’ etc just makes it seem a whole lot less like legitimate concerns about civil rights or rules of engagement in bombing campaigns.

 

[Deleted member 1169]

Thick as mince…

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That’s big talk for someone that doesn’t actually bother to dispute anything specifically that I said. Just cognitive dissonance.

I’ve no idea who The Fish is, but I’m not sure exactly what you mean by ‘usual backstory’ are you just making a big assumption there so you can dismiss anything I say and retreat to the safety of what you already believe?

Go away - you are an idiot and a cliche and now on ignore.

 

[MidnightRoker]

Go away - you are an idiot and a cliche and now on ignore.

Back into your echo chamber then.

 

[Binxy]

Haway mods ffs. @Pancho

 

[MidnightRoker]

Haway mods ffs. @Pancho

I was asked for my opinion so I gave it, from an impartial perspective. Is that against the rules here? Restriction of free speech would be pretty spectacularly ironic in this context I would say.

 

[Hatful Of Hollow]

Hey, I said give me a few minutes, cool your jets.

Firstly, I’m conflicted about whether it should have been allowed or not. Because a sovereign wealth fund doesn’t inherently mean state ownership. For example if a country’s state pension fund bought a stake in a club purely intending to see a return would that be state interference? No, because they are ran by fund managers looking for monetary value not political value. The issue with the Saudi fund is that it’s impossible to know if that separation is really in place as the Premier League obviously can’t ever know for sure. But the fact is, that legally on paper the Saudi state DON’T own Newcastle, and technicalities like that are what’s important in business transactions not optics or assumptions about the practice of such an arrangement. Sovereign wealth funds owning clubs should have been banned in the rules of the league to avoid situations like this with grey areas of ownership, but it’s too late now, the horse has bolted and it’s the league’s fault (unless Boris made them allow it to complete).

As for the moral aspect, that’s an incredibly difficult subject and too many on both sides are oversimplifying the situation. Firstly I’ll qualify that I’m fully against the homophobia, human rights abuses, second class status of women and all other aspects of Saudi life that we in the UK find reprehensible by our standards. But therein lies the problem, they are OUR standards. What do we call it when we push our beliefs ideals and standards on another sovereign nation? Colonialism? Xenophobia? Think about it from the other perspective, have you read any scare stories about establishing Sharia law in areas of the UK, how did you feel about that? I would prefer to see full democracy, secularism and robust human rights in every country in the world, but does that make me a globalist? Another dirty word. Fact is, you should leave sovereign counties to do their own thing, if they want to make their country an awful repressive place to live, that’s their problem and we should’ve learned by now that interfering just causes huge problems (Afghanistan anyone?). Vote with your wallet if you don’t want to contribute to a regime that does things you don’t like, but getting high and mighty over other people who give money to a UK ally, just puts you on shaky ground and wide open to accusations of hypocrisy if you are inconsistent (like for example if you buy something made in China where they have concentration camps, and who are ostensibly a UK adversary).

As for Yemen, that seems to be a stick used to beat Newcastle fans with, but many (on both sides) don’t seem to actually know what is happening there. Sunderland fans who act like it’s a Russia Ukraine situation are wrong, but Newcastle fans that defend it while thinking the same are actually MORE wrong. It isn’t one Sovereign nation attacking another, it is a coalition headed by SA attempting to put down a civil war in Yemen at the invitation of the legitimate Yemeni government as recognised by the UN Security Council (of which the UK is a permanent member) so on the one side you have the Saudis and a large coalition of various countries that are generally considered (comparatively) more moderate westernised Muslim nations, backed and armed by UK US and various European allies. And on the other side you have the Houthi rebels who are the stereotypical ‘death to the west’ Islamic extremists, backed by Iran, Syria and rumour has it North Korea. Now there’s a discussion to be had that the collateral damage is unacceptable and SA bombing tactics are unethical, but they are using bombs we sell them, so when you talk about Yemeni kids dying should that criticism be directed at football fans rather than politicians? Did we not do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan? I’m from an armed forces family, my brother used to attach bombs to jets at camp Bastion and I’m sure everyone on here knows at least someone who has done a tour or two, so are we throwing stones in glass house by complaining about UK bombs dropped by UK allies?

I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow and the takeover should never have happened as politics and football don’t mix well, but the fact is that if you support the Houthi rebels against the UN rubber stamped SA intervention then you support a group whose slogan is:

“God is the greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Cursed be the Jews, Victory to Islam".

If you’ve accidentally stood up for that group then maybe, just maybe you’ve let football tribalism affect your judgement, because I honestly don’t believe either Newcastle fans or Sunderland fans support Islamic fundamentalism. At least not the ones in my family or friends.

obvious wum