Is Sunderland a city of the future?



Its great theyve finally got round to developing the vaux site, although im not sure they should be putting housing on it as it caps future growth......given ownership of houses effectively landlocks the use more-or less indefinitely for residential.
Probably should have had more land given to commercial businesses, more leisure. The vaux site is ultimately comprising of a relocated civic centre, a relocated eye infirmary, a few office buildings and some houses. Not really comprising of a 'business district'.
Its great theyve finally got round to building ....something, just hope when its finished people dont view it as an opportunity squandered
 
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citybythesea said:
Its great theyve finally got round to developing the vaux site, although im not sure they should be putting housing on it as it caps future growth......given ownership of houses effectively landlocks the use more-or less indefinitely for residential.
Probably should have had more land given to commercial businesses, more leisure. The vaux site is ultimately comprising of a relocated civic centre, a relocated eye infirmary, a few office buildings and some houses. Not really comprising of a 'business district'.
Its great theyve finally got round to building ....something, just hope when its finished people dont view it as an opportunity squandered
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Commercial businesses? Such as? If they don't appear how long do we leave the land vacant? It's already been over 20 years. The housing will increase footfall and lead to a boost in business activity in the city centre....
hopefully.

We all hope it's not an opportunity squandered.
 
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EDGE said:
Commercial businesses? Such as? If they don't appear how long do we leave the land vacant? It's already been over 20 years. The housing will increase footfall and lead to a boost in business activity in the city centre....
hopefully.

We all hope it's not an opportunity squandered.
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The housing will increase footfall but it will be an opportunity cost to future development.
They could have used the vacant land for temporary pop-up events. Or something like the SES co-op centre in Hendon, using shipping containers for start up business, or even working with the university to retain graduates and encourage them to set up businesses here. Again all could be done in shipping containers like the SES centre or the stack, but doesn’t occupy the land permanently should future opportunities arise.
Now they’ve signed off houses it draws a line on future potential for the vaux site.
 
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citybythesea said:
The housing will increase footfall but it will be an opportunity cost to future development.
They could have used the vacant land for temporary pop-up events. Or something like the SES co-op centre in Hendon, using shipping containers for start up business, or even working with the university to retain graduates and encourage them to set up businesses here. Again all could be done in shipping containers like the SES centre or the stack, but doesn’t occupy the land permanently should future opportunities arise.
Now they’ve signed off houses it draws a line on future potential for the vaux site.
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Isn’t that what they do at the Hope Street Exchange and St Peters Gate?

There is also the Yard which I believe is for small managed workspace, and there are places like the BIC?

More so they’ve go 1m sq ft of office space planned as it stands which will take some doing to fill. Beyond that there is Sunniside, Holmeside, Parklane, Blanford St that could all be redeveloped to further provide office space if there is demand.

Most other major cities have much higher proportion of people living in the city centre.
 
Osklen said:
Isn’t that what they do at the Hope Street Exchange and St Peters Gate?

There is also the Yard which I believe is for small managed workspace, and there are places like the BIC?

More so they’ve go 1m sq ft of office space planned as it stands which will take some doing to fill. Beyond that there is Sunniside, Holmeside, Parklane, Blanford St that could all be redeveloped to further provide office space if there is demand.

Most other major cities have much higher proportion of people living in the city centre.
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And the software centre. RWC Building and the old Job Centre on John Street. There is already plenty of empty accommodation.
I am not sure if there is even the demand.

We have to do something with it.
 
EDGE said:
And the software centre. RWC Building and the old Job Centre on John Street. There is already plenty of empty accommodation.
I am not sure if there is even the demand.

We have to do something with it.
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That’s the issue is the time it will take to wait as It could take 20 years to deliver all the office space. If there becomes significant demand hopefully the redevelopment of other parts of the city become more viable or places like Washington / Houghton might get the benefit of it.
 
citybythesea said:
The housing will increase footfall but it will be an opportunity cost to future development.
They could have used the vacant land for temporary pop-up events. Or something like the SES co-op centre in Hendon, using shipping containers for start up business, or even working with the university to retain graduates and encourage them to set up businesses here. Again all could be done in shipping containers like the SES centre or the stack, but doesn’t occupy the land permanently should future opportunities arise.
Now they’ve signed off houses it draws a line on future potential for the vaux site.
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Residential buildings/housing give the leisure and entertainment businesses more chance of surviving or thriving now. This hybrid working thing is here to stay so office demand if anything is not as high as it once was, there’ll be plenty other space in the centre of the town for commercial property that’s probably already stood vacant or when they flatten other shit areas (like hopefully Holmeside one day soon). The town is a ghost town after 5pm during the week and even sometimes on a weekend so if you add more people into the middle of it, it allows for more bars, restaurants and other venues to open and the existing ones to thrive.

My thoughts anyway. It would also be a canny place to live if the banks overlooking the Wear got tidied up which I assume it would, what a view that would be.
 
Osklen said:
Isn’t that what they do at the Hope Street Exchange and St Peters Gate?

There is also the Yard which I believe is for small managed workspace, and there are places like the BIC?

More so they’ve go 1m sq ft of office space planned as it stands which will take some doing to fill. Beyond that there is Sunniside, Holmeside, Parklane, Blanford St that could all be redeveloped to further provide office space if there is demand.

Most other major cities have much higher proportion of people living in the city centre.
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Even considering the residential Buildings for the vaux, they haven’t exactly maximise the quantity by building up instead of out………

Guess when the vaux site closed there was a different economic outlook to the current conditions, but they missed the building boom of the 2000s, annex off lots of the site with the road realignment (incidentally half of which is planned for closure), relocated the civic centre, relocating the eye infirmary and build houses.
Sunderland has ultimately suffered by being one dimensional to its businesses in the city centre (retail) and it’s consolidated that by long running strategy of putting offices on the outskirts. This ultimately should be reversed, putting residential in the erm suburbs and commercial (other than retail) in the centre. Ultimately narrow minded strategy and it’s shortcomings has been laid bare with advent of internet shopping, culminating in the sorry state of shops and ergo the city centre we see today. Now we once again see a scramble to reimagine the city centre away from retail.
 
citybythesea said:
Even considering the residential Buildings for the vaux, they haven’t exactly maximise the quantity by building up instead of out………

Guess when the vaux site closed there was a different economic outlook to the current conditions, but they missed the building boom of the 2000s, annex off lots of the site with the road realignment (incidentally half of which is planned for closure), relocated the civic centre, relocating the eye infirmary and build houses.
Sunderland has ultimately suffered by being one dimensional to its businesses in the city centre (retail) and it’s consolidated that by long running strategy of putting offices on the outskirts. This ultimately should be reversed, putting residential in the erm suburbs and commercial (other than retail) in the centre. Ultimately narrow minded strategy and it’s shortcomings has been laid bare with advent of internet shopping, culminating in the sorry state of shops and ergo the city centre we see today. Now we once again see a scramble to reimagine the city centre away from retail.
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I totally agree that office space should be in the city centre and it should be the strategy for the city, but Residential should form part of the strategy as well.

You have to put the city centre / retail issues into some context though as council didn’t own the Vaux site until 2014 and the out of town business parks (office space) were constructed at a time when there much less available space in the city centre. At that time they built doxford park it wouldn’t have been clear that Vaux was to close.

Regarding resi density the issue with going higher is all to do with viability. If there was demand for apartments in large tower blocks then I’m sure they would be building them. When they have gone taller I don’t they’ve been massively successful - echo 24, bonnersfield for example.

Nearly all city and town centres, as well as shopping centres are looking to reinvent themselves away from retail dominance.
 
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We are delighted that the Fire Station has won two awards in the 2022 National Schüco Excellence Awards for Design and Innovation, run in association with Architecture Today. The Fire Station won the Cultural Building of the Year Award as well as the ‘Peoples Award’ at this event. This second award is particularly pleasing as it is the vote of all those attending the Awards Ceremony including the peer group of architects of Flanagan Lawrence, the Fire Station’s architects, and all the assembled contractors, clients and others. We congratulate Jason Flanagan and his team on their superb design and look forward to the outcome of other awards for which the Fire Station has been nominated.
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Saw this on LinkedIn this morning, a great piece of recognition of the works recently completed and hopefully sends a signal to outsiders looking in that the city is progressing
 
citybythesea said:
Even considering the residential Buildings for the vaux, they haven’t exactly maximise the quantity by building up instead of out………

Guess when the vaux site closed there was a different economic outlook to the current conditions, but they missed the building boom of the 2000s, annex off lots of the site with the road realignment (incidentally half of which is planned for closure), relocated the civic centre, relocating the eye infirmary and build houses.
Sunderland has ultimately suffered by being one dimensional to its businesses in the city centre (retail) and it’s consolidated that by long running strategy of putting offices on the outskirts. This ultimately should be reversed, putting residential in the erm suburbs and commercial (other than retail) in the centre. Ultimately narrow minded strategy and it’s shortcomings has been laid bare with advent of internet shopping, culminating in the sorry state of shops and ergo the city centre we see today. Now we once again see a scramble to reimagine the city centre away from retail.
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Seems crazy having the likes of Doxy with 15,000 workers (apparently) on the outskirts of the city while the centre dies on its arse.

FWIW I think the city centre plans look great and the regeneration of the sea front / area around the empire is fantastic.
 
Osklen said:
I totally agree that office space should be in the city centre and it should be the strategy for the city, but Residential should form part of the strategy as well.

You have to put the city centre / retail issues into some context though as council didn’t own the Vaux site until 2014 and the out of town business parks (office space) were constructed at a time when there much less available space in the city centre. At that time they built doxford park it wouldn’t have been clear that Vaux was to close.

Regarding resi density the issue with going higher is all to do with viability. If there was demand for apartments in large tower blocks then I’m sure they would be building them. When they have gone taller I don’t they’ve been massively successful - echo 24, bonnersfield for example.

Nearly all city and town centres, as well as shopping centres are looking to reinvent themselves away from retail dominance.
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I guess it ultimately comes down to if the planners wish to maintain the current trajectory of Sunderland or move it to a more ambitious place.
 
Deckchair said:
Seems crazy having the likes of Doxy with 15,000 workers (apparently) on the outskirts of the city while the centre dies on its arse.

FWIW I think the city centre plans look great and the regeneration of the sea front / area around the empire is fantastic.
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I'm fairly sure Doxy was built with a lot of European grants that won't have necessarily been available for city centre redevelopment. At the time (and possibly now) access to the A19 was seen as a selling point rather than the gridlock you would get around a city centre.
There's also been a huge amount of housing built up that way, I assume in some part to accommodate people working there.
The world has changed dramatically since Doxy was built and we need to keep evolving.

As an aside, I saw someone on FB complaining about the housing and suggesting that we need a department store. Seems a great idea, not sure why nobody has built a department store in Sunderland before.:lol:
 
RestlessNatives said:
I'm fairly sure Doxy was built with a lot of European grants that won't have necessarily been available for city centre redevelopment. At the time (and possibly now) access to the A19 was seen as a selling point rather than the gridlock you would get around a city centre.
There's also been a huge amount of housing built up that way, I assume in some part to accommodate people working there.
The world has changed dramatically since Doxy was built and we need to keep evolving.

As an aside, I saw someone on FB complaining about the housing and suggesting that we need a department store. Seems a great idea, not sure why nobody has built a department store in Sunderland before.:lol:
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People on Facebook are idiots. It’s incredible how many people in Sunderland are stuck in the past. Everything the nimbys moaned about down seaburn has turned out mint yet they’re still crying over us not returning to the 1950’s with fairgrounds and kiss me quick hats. Good job the council are ignoring the boring tory bastards.
 
citybythesea said:
I guess it ultimately comes down to if the planners wish to maintain the current trajectory of Sunderland or move it to a more ambitious place.
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Ultimately it comes down to demand and viability, and I suppose what people deem as ambitious - however there is no point having plans that can’t be delivered. Hopefully this is just the first phase of a series of interventions in the city.
RestlessNatives said:
I'm fairly sure Doxy was built with a lot of European grants that won't have necessarily been available for city centre redevelopment. At the time (and possibly now) access to the A19 was seen as a selling point rather than the gridlock you would get around a city centre.
There's also been a huge amount of housing built up that way, I assume in some part to accommodate people working there.
The world has changed dramatically since Doxy was built and we need to keep evolving.

As an aside, I saw someone on FB complaining about the housing and suggesting that we need a department store. Seems a great idea, not sure why nobody has built a department store in Sunderland before.:lol:
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According to wiki Doxford international first building were complete in 1992, so must have been in development in the mid/late 80’s. Also the site was designated as an enterprise zone I think to attract private sector developers to construct them and obviously had business incentives. As I mentioned before at that time I’m not sure what land would have been available?
 
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Sgt Pepper said:
The town is a ghost town after 5pm during the week and even sometimes on a weekend so if you add more people into the middle of it, it allows for more bars, restaurants and other venues to open and the existing ones to thrive.
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That's one of my biggest gripes about Sunderland. A couple of times I've rushed into town after work for something and the place just switches off straight after 5:30.
 

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