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Harry Gardiner in from South Shields

is there anything we can even do about stopping big PL clubs just cherry picking our best kids before they get a proper chance at league football here? im assuming even if we were in the PL the same would still happen
We've always had the top PL clubs cherry picking the best of the younger lads but at least we actually tried to convince them to stay and the pathway to first team football was there. By the end of the Short era we just accepted that they'd go and stopped before Donald et al actively started hawking them out. Looks like we're on the right track again though.
 

Rigg is on another level to the Greenwood/Neil/Mumba age group.
I totally get that mate but there are never any guarantees he'll develop on. My point was a different one and it was about the cynical exploitation of the the 'big' clubs. They probably spend millions every year on youngsters some of whom don't develop on. Liverpool took 3 of ours and 3 from Newcastle. It will be interesting to look in 3 years time to see if any of them play first team. For the big clubs it's a mass harvest spending for them little money on low risk gambles. Then they moan they need more income. I'm sure you are correct that Rigg is different class but for some of the lads who have left and will leave it may not be the best decision.
 
I totally get that mate but there are never any guarantees he'll develop on. My point was a different one and it was about the cynical exploitation of the the 'big' clubs. They probably spend millions every year on youngsters some of whom don't develop on. Liverpool took 3 of ours and 3 from Newcastle. It will be interesting to look in 3 years time to see if any of them play first team. For the big clubs it's a mass harvest spending for them little money on low risk gambles. Then they moan they need more income. I'm sure you are correct that Rigg is different class but for some of the lads who have left and will leave it may not be the best decision.

And the gamble of going to these big clubs gives these players a higher opportunity of having a longer career in the game with the opportunities you get whilst at these clubs. If you get released from Sunderland within the academy where are you going to go, non league 95% of the time. From these big clubs you will get a chance at another academy eg us, blackburn, forest etc or have the opportunity in L1 or L2. Look at Tyler Frost for example who was released from Reading came to us on trial and went to Crawley and played 46 games over the last two years for them (albeit he has now been released). The money aspect is also key, who knows when your career will end, you might have a car crash tomorrow and become paralysed - football is a short career and is money driven at all levels.
 
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And the gamble of going to these big clubs gives these players a higher opportunity of having a longer career in the game with the opportunities you get whilst at these clubs. If you get released from Sunderland within the academy where are you going to go, non league 95% of the time. From these big clubs you will get a chance at another academy eg us, blackburn, forest etc or have the opportunity in L1 or L2. Look at Tyler Frost for example who was released from Reading came to us on trial and went to Crawley and played 46 games over the last two years for them (albeit he has now been released). The money aspect is also key, who knows when your career will end, you might have a car crash tomorrow and become paralysed - football is a short career and is money driven at all levels.
If you had a son/relative in that situation, would you advise on leaving?
 
And the gamble of going to these big clubs gives these players a higher opportunity of having a longer career in the game with the opportunities you get whilst at these clubs. If you get released from Sunderland within the academy where are you going to go, non league 95% of the time. From these big clubs you will get a chance at another academy eg us, blackburn, forest etc or have the opportunity in L1 or L2. Look at Tyler Frost for example who was released from Reading came to us on trial and went to Crawley and played 46 games over the last two years for them (albeit he has now been released). The money aspect is also key, who knows when your career will end, you might have a car crash tomorrow and become paralysed - football is a short career and is money driven at all levels.

If you get released at Sunderland, then you probably weren't good enough in the first place. If a lad has genuine potential, then we're not releasing him.

I tend to look at it from a player point of view that if they are willing to put in the hard yards and choose to stay at their parent clubs, they'll have a far better career that may actually lead on to something quicker than stagnating in an U23 side for years before getting released.

Hughill at Man U and Sam at Leeds both should be getting regular first team football and establishing themselves, but they choose the longer path like you said, which in my opinion, could have put their development back by years.
 
And the gamble of going to these big clubs gives these players a higher opportunity of having a longer career in the game with the opportunities you get whilst at these clubs. If you get released from Sunderland within the academy where are you going to go, non league 95% of the time. From these big clubs you will get a chance at another academy eg us, blackburn, forest etc or have the opportunity in L1 or L2. Look at Tyler Frost for example who was released from Reading came to us on trial and went to Crawley and played 46 games over the last two years for them (albeit he has now been released). The money aspect is also key, who knows when your career will end, you might have a car crash tomorrow and become paralysed - football is a short career and is money driven at all levels.
Again, I get that but football is like any walk of life. When a lad has been here 10 years or 5 years the club knows them and knows their development trajectory. When they go to a new, massive club competing with international youth purchases it can potentially be deterimental. Michael Wood who was poached by Chelsea from Leeds all those years ago is a good example. Admittedly he had injuries but his career was effectively York and Hartlepool. I am sure he must wonder what his career would have been had he stayed at Chelsea. For any footballer the key period for development must be between about 15 and maybe 19 or 20. If you don't develop as you should or could then your career will be affected accordingly. All I am saying is leaving for some will be the right but for some staying at a place which has looked after you for years and knows you inside and out could be a better option. Anyway, us being Championship now changes the outlook considerably.
 
And the gamble of going to these big clubs gives these players a higher opportunity of having a longer career in the game with the opportunities you get whilst at these clubs. If you get released from Sunderland within the academy where are you going to go, non league 95% of the time. From these big clubs you will get a chance at another academy eg us, blackburn, forest etc or have the opportunity in L1 or L2. Look at Tyler Frost for example who was released from Reading came to us on trial and went to Crawley and played 46 games over the last two years for them (albeit he has now been released). The money aspect is also key, who knows when your career will end, you might have a car crash tomorrow and become paralysed - football is a short career and is money driven at all levels.
I'd hazard a guess that Patrick Roberts regets leaving Fulham for Man City. Yes he may have made money but football wise his career never took off the way it should have.

It's not always as categorical as you state
 
If you had a son/relative in that situation, would you advise on leaving?
If you had a son at the club you would judge how the club treated him, how happy the son was etc. If he was happy then why not look at Anthony Patterson and say look at that as a future. I know a bloke who's son was in the Sunderland Development Squad at age 14 or 15. This is 24 players below the Elite squad of 24. Obviously the chances of making a career were tiny and both the lad and the Dad were aware of this but enjoyed the experience for what it was. He said it was amazing how many parents thought their son was going to make riches despite only being in the Development Squad. I would guess that the ambitions of the parents will lead to wrong decisions. Again, like in any walk of life as a parent you need to be measured and the key measure is whether your kids are happy where they are.
 
If you had a son at the club you would judge how the club treated him, how happy the son was etc. If he was happy then why not look at Anthony Patterson and say look at that as a future. I know a bloke who's son was in the Sunderland Development Squad at age 14 or 15. This is 24 players below the Elite squad of 24. Obviously the chances of making a career were tiny and both the lad and the Dad were aware of this but enjoyed the experience for what it was. He said it was amazing how many parents thought their son was going to make riches despite only being in the Development Squad. I would guess that the ambitions of the parents will lead to wrong decisions. Again, like in any walk of life as a parent you need to be measured and the key measure is whether your kids are happy where they are.
Gardiner is a good example as I believe, although I may be wrong, he rejected the chance to join Academy football and only joined Sheilds as a 16 year old then Sunderland from there.
 
If you had a son at the club you would judge how the club treated him, how happy the son was etc. If he was happy then why not look at Anthony Patterson and say look at that as a future. I know a bloke who's son was in the Sunderland Development Squad at age 14 or 15. This is 24 players below the Elite squad of 24. Obviously the chances of making a career were tiny and both the lad and the Dad were aware of this but enjoyed the experience for what it was. He said it was amazing how many parents thought their son was going to make riches despite only being in the Development Squad. I would guess that the ambitions of the parents will lead to wrong decisions. Again, like in any walk of life as a parent you need to be measured and the key measure is whether your kids are happy where they are.
My question was aimed at the point of the football pyramid and money driven for the potential of a short career.
All pathways and circumstances are different.
I'm a big believer in what we are trying to do here.
 
If you had a son/relative in that situation, would you advise on leaving?

I wouldn't in this day and age.

The pool of kids these big clubs have now surely means that a lot of kids with potential get overlooked. Some kids won't benefit from that crowded environment and will need an arm around their shoulders.

It's the lads decision of course, but surely any decent parent would be best to point out thatvits not all rosey at these big clubs.
 
My question was aimed at the point of the football pyramid and money driven for the potential of a short career.
All pathways and circumstances are different.
I'm a big believer in what we are trying to do here.
Again, despite us think football is different to real life I think there are parallels. Two of my kids have left university and have started jobs. Both could get more money elsewhere but both are happy where they're at and my view is don't chase the money. I get that the money in football is mind boggling. However, Hugill has gone to MAn U on great money for an 18 year old. That money though won't change his life. It will only change his life if he's getting top money in a few years time.
 
I'd hazard a guess that Patrick Roberts regets leaving Fulham for Man City. Yes he may have made money but football wise his career never took off the way it should have.

It's not always as categorical as you state

Yes and he will be set for life. What is more important struggling once your career is over or setting up a life yourself and future family. I know what I would do.
 
Yes and he will be set for life. What is more important struggling once your career is over or setting up a life yourself and future family. I know what I would do.

The likelihood is tho, if you have that mentality as a youngun, you won't even make the money to be set for life. I doubt Roberts has millions tbf and he's been round the block at some big clubs.

There's many an ex footballer working normal 9-5 jobs who probably thought they'd made it as a young'un signing for a big club.
 
So all young players should just look for as much money as possible at the detriment of the footballing career

I'm glad not all think only of the money like you

It's bollocks tbf, do you think Ronaldo is money motivated?.....absolutely not, his drive to be the best and win has brought him the money.

How many times have you seen talented young'uns piss it up the wall because they think they've already made it. Having the right mentality is equally as important as talent, if not more so.
 
It's bollocks tbf, do you think Ronaldo is money motivated?.....absolutely not, his drive to be the best and win has brought him the money.

How many times have you seen talented young'uns piss it up the wall because they think they've already made it. Having the right mentality is equally as important as talent, if not more so.

Especially at this club.
 
It's bollocks tbf, do you think Ronaldo is money motivated?.....absolutely not, his drive to be the best and win has brought him the money.

How many times have you seen talented young'uns piss it up the wall because they think they've already made it. Having the right mentality is equally as important as talent, if not more so.
If money is the only motivation for moving then it's the wrong decision

If those moving Academies thing it's better for their career / development then fair enough
 
Especially at this club.

Tbh, back in the 90's I knew a few lads who got a foot in at Sunderland and they thought they'd made it. It turned sour for them pretty quickly and they weren't making nothing like these young lads do now, but they were spending it as quickly on the wrong stuff.

A fool and their money is easily parted.
 
So all young players should just look for as much money as possible at the detriment of the footballing career

I'm glad not all think only of the money like you

Where are they going to grow more?

At an academy which struggles at u18/23 or training day in day out with the best in class, the best facilities and the best loaning systems. Not every player will play first team football obviously for these big clubs but being there gives them a better shot of a career after with clubs in L1/L2 offering them contracts along with those clubs loaning these players.
 
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