Booing prior to the kick off.

[Skylon]

It's become a campaign against all kinds of discrimination, injustice, etc.

It also includes homophobia, LGBT, womens rights, etc.

Once they realised BLM was too political and devisive they dropped thaf idea and became all inclusive.

Mark Bullingham, FA CEO said:

“We stand firmly against all forms of prejudice, so a key pillar of our strategy is to use our influence to deliver a game free from discrimination. We are striving to ensure that football at all levels is a safe environment for all, embracing diversity and inclusion, whilst challenging hateful conduct both on and off the pitch.

“We are very clear on what this symbolic gesture originally stood for 200 years ago and what it continues to stand for today, and that is a fight against injustice, inequality and discrimination. We will support any players who wish to take a stand against racism and discrimination by taking a knee. They have our unequivocal support.”

He is from the F.A,not the efl,who said the knee is against racism and injustice

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

The mental mathematics is quite something

 

[Skylon]

That's it, just ignore the bits that don't suit your argument

“We stand firmly against all forms of prejudice."

What you on about man?Give it up.You are tying yourself in knots,over something you claim to not be bothered about anyway.Its hilarious

 

[Get Into Em]

It's become a campaign against all kinds of discrimination, injustice, etc.

It also includes homophobia, LGBT, womens rights, etc.

Once they realised BLM was too political and devisive they dropped thaf idea and became all inclusive.

Mark Bullingham, FA CEO said:

“We stand firmly against all forms of prejudice, so a key pillar of our strategy is to use our influence to deliver a game free from discrimination. We are striving to ensure that football at all levels is a safe environment for all, embracing diversity and inclusion, whilst challenging hateful conduct both on and off the pitch.

“We are very clear on what this symbolic gesture originally stood for 200 years ago and what it continues to stand for today, and that is a fight against injustice, inequality and discrimination. We will support any players who wish to take a stand against racism and discrimination by taking a knee. They have our unequivocal support.”

So it's not only anti-racism, it's also anti-loads of other forms of discrimination. Brilliant.

I get why they boo now. Cheers.

Just to be petty, seen as though you were when you incorrectly said that it wasn't an anti-racism campaign: is Mark Bullingham the EFL?

 

[Bear Heed]

So it's not only anti-racism, it's also anti-loads of other forms of discrimination. Brilliant.

I get why they boo now. Cheers.

Just to be petty, seen as though you were when you incorrectly said that it wasn't an anti-racism campaign: is Mark Bullingham the EFL?

You said it was an anti-racism campaign when it's not, racism is included.

No big deal but what you said wasn't quite correct.

I've no idea why people are booing.

 

[Skylon]

The clip of this^^^^^^^

 

[Row 3]

The clip of this^^^^^^^

It's quite something to behold. Ages since I've seen such a comprehensive self-tucking.

 

[ClarenceBoddicker]

Bulls Lug embarrassing himself.

 

[Bear Heed]

So it's not only anti-racism, it's also anti-loads of other forms of discrimination. Brilliant.

I get why they boo now. Cheers.

Just to be petty, seen as though you were when you incorrectly said that it wasn't an anti-racism campaign: is Mark Bullingham the EFL?

It's not simply an anti-racism campaign as you said although, as I've said all the way through the thread, there's an element of that.

As for the quote, here's one from the EFL that repeats what Mark Bullingham of the FA said.

EFL chief executive Trevor Birch said: “The EFL takes the issue of tackling racism and discrimination, in all its forms, very seriously, but we must always strive to do more.

Dismiss it if you like, your choice.

 

[Skylon]

It's not simply an anti-racism campaign as you said although, as I've said all the way through the thread, there's an element of that.

As for the quote, here's one from the EFL that repeats what Mark Bullingham of the FA said.

EFL chief executive Trevor Birch said: “The EFL takes the issue of tackling racism and discrimination, in all its forms, very seriously, but we must always strive to do more.

Dismiss it if you like, your choice.

Yes,this confirms,its against racism.Thanks again

 

[Thatheaderman]

Can anyone smell parsnips

 

[Roker SOL]

Just a couple of things.You can refer to right wing people, who get outraged at everything,as snowflakes as well.

Okay, Monday is my busiest day and I should have waited until a quieter moment until I answered. In otherword, I just shouldn't try to respond to serious posts here on a Monday.

I don't know if I can hold to your above statement but more due to semantics. Snowflakes I've always understood to be on the left and go off on one despite being alledgedly liberal. The stereotype is then have a cry or rant, but rarely with that stereotype are they seen as violent (i.e. go and cry in a corner somewhere - probably a little harsh).

The right wing and reactionary equivalent is a gammon, who also loses the plot, so caled due to the colour they go when enraged by something they disagree with. They don't cry off and can have a go if pushed enough (the so called gammonflake).

To me, they're two different things, but we can disagree on that.

Then you say it's a top notch gesture,but then you say it comes from a criminal(getting killed,by the way),so you cannot support it.And I would just like to also add,I don't care if George Floyd was a criminal.Nobody deserves to be killed,yes killed(not an unfortunate death,purposefully killed),like he was.

It was initially a strong, visible protest and in the short term I supported it. But that was not because of George Floyd, but becasue things were not perfect in this country, the UK (more later), where despite legislation we still have with some people a "them and us" systemic racism. However, has it achieved a strengthening of laws and legislation such that racism is on it's way out? I suggest not at this stage as it has not had the impact on the powers that be such as Government in the wider arena and the FA in football to act decisively and immediately.

I will note the FA is trying, with the now long established and visible "kick it out" campaign that does not impact on the 90 minutes of football. And noting the situation in cricket, they probably need to follow the same path. I acknowledge it has lost visibility and momentum, a point I'll come to later.

My argument is if a protest is not achieving it's aim of significant change, does it continue to have the same impact? Like alot of fans, yes, the point was made at the time that the behaviour of some was out of order and needed to be called out. I'm thinking immediately of John Terry as an on the pitch example.

However, we're also looking at a situation where repeating the gesture week in, week out is of diminishing returns. Fans became ambivolent to it and eventually some have booed the gesture. That is why I argue that a gesture is only effective at the time of an incident. And if there is a future incident then yes, at that point a gesture is made.

If I as someone does not like racism have become ambivolent to the point I think "not again", then that point of "timed impact" surely has some relevance. Week in, week out, it just becomes (for want of a better word) "meh". Your football crowd is quite traditional compared to other sports (annd the fanfare before games in other countries), where unless there is an outside event demanding immdiate attention, we do just want to get on with the game.

Also, whether you like it or not, alot of people, including football fans, feel very uncomfortable about George Floyd becomeing even an accidental figurehead (the probable reason for some fans booing alongside boredom of the gesture when all they want is to see a game of football, not - necessarily - racism). You say that you don't care tha George Floyd was a criminal. Yes, I agree completely no-one deserves to be murdered and the person responsible is now in prison where he belongs - and being an ex-copper having his life made hell. What happened to him was completely wrong and yes, a deliberate murder given he said he couldn't breath due to his restraint and was ignored. But I'm not happy about using a man who robbed a woman at gunpoint amongst other offences as a role model (note I don't trust the pregnancy part of the story of the woman at gunpoint). Yes, later, he tried to reform his life and full credit to him for that, I will acknowledge. But his criminal background makes people feel uneasy and even suspicious of the "take the knee" protest due to that association.

You yourself have named a far better better role model in Marcus Rashford, who campaigned to ensure kids of school age did not go hungry during the pandemic. That man is a hero in my eyes for doing the right thing and that is who kids should be encouraged to look up to. Also, Marcus focussed on a UK issue. To me, events in certain areas of the US cannot be married to our own quest for equality. The situation in the US is very different to here where issues are much deeper and I think we need to focus on UK issues where UK people and goverment where a difference can be made directly relevant to the UK. Our legislation, albeit it with some tidying up needed, is in place. It's a matter of ensuring correct implementation along with effective education.

The taking the knee gesture,has also been around long before this.And,the likes of my son and daughter,have asked me some important questions about racism,and morals in general,because they have seen players taking the knee.

Yes, the taking the knee gesture predates the George Floyd incident. Also, I'll acknowlege that it has encouraged your children to discuss racism and they have thus conducted school projects on the matter of racism. That is part of a larger picture, including Marcus Rashford's actions for kids hungry during the pandemic. You are proposing it is used as a discussion point and thus an educational tool. Point conceded that it has helped educate children on the subject. "Why did people including footballers take the knee in June 2020? - discuss".

But I again have have to question the role model and I refer back to my point on using UK role models who have made a genuine difference.

Also, can a protest not be done to death such that it becomes invisible, like "Kick It Out"? I acknowledge that the various anti-racsim campaigns need to be refreshed and two years ago, the knee protest helped. But I refer also to my earlier comments of diminishing returns. Is the knee to face the same fate as "kick it out"?

Impact protest at the time of an event is more useful than dragging something on for week after week to the point you sicken people of it.

They never even started a discussion because of the kick it out campaign.It is well meaning,but rather invisible.

I refer to my remarks above.

Oh,and you can be racist and moderate centre left ,you know?

I'd be more careful of your wording with this statement, pointing out that if I was directly called a racist I would consider that as an insult without an explanation of why I was called that. If my behaviour at a given point gave that impression to someone, then I would ask my accuser as why I'd given that impression. I have been very clear I do not think in that way. If that was directed at me, you truely have got me wrong.

But moving on and to summarise, my disagreement is with what I see as the overuse of a protest to the point it becomes either an irrelevance or people's discomfort due to the connection with George Floyd's past. That is not racisim, simply people expressing concerns over the protest as I have either due to overuse or those connections.

Because I'm not taking the knee or not supporting taking the knee week in (again, I don't boo), week out (as I said, targetted, peaceful impact at the time of an event), doesn't make me a racist.

To finsh, I note that Newcastle United has been cited as an example where "taking the knee" has been applauded. But do remeber that Newcastle and other clubs are owned by people and institutions whose records on the rights of women, non-Muslims, LGBTQ+ people and other minorities is far from perfect in their home countries. Yet the fans conveniently forget these issues as they think the money of these benefactors is going to buy them silverware.

So perhaps we need to look also at who owns UK football clubs.

 

[Skylon]

Okay, Monday is my busiest day and I should have waited until a quieter moment until I answered. In otherword, I just shouldn't try to respond to serious posts here on a Monday.

I don't know if I can hold to your above statement but more due to semantics. Snowflakes I've always understood to be on the left and go off on one despite being alledgedly liberal. The stereotype is then have a cry or rant, but rarely with that stereotype are they seen as violent (i.e. go and cry in a corner somewhere - probably a little harsh).

The right wing and reactionary equivalent is a gammon, who also loses the plot, so caled due to the colour they go when enraged by something they disagree with. They don't cry off and can have a go if pushed enough (the so called gammonflake).

To me, they're two different things, but we can disagree on that.


It was initially a strong, visible protest and in the short term I supported it. But that was not because of George Floyd, but becasue things were not perfect in this country, the UK (more later), where despite legislation we still have with some people a "them and us" systemic racism. However, has it achieved a strengthening of laws and legislation such that racism is on it's way out? I suggest not at this stage as it has not had the impact on the powers that be such as Government in the wider arena and the FA in football to act decisively and immediately.

I will note the FA is trying, with the now long established and visible "kick it out" campaign that does not impact on the 90 minutes of football. And noting the situation in cricket, they probably need to follow the same path. I acknowledge it has lost visibility and momentum, a point I'll come to later.

My argument is if a protest is not achieving it's aim of significant change, does it continue to have the same impact? Like alot of fans, yes, the point was made at the time that the behaviour of some was out of order and needed to be called out. I'm thinking immediately of John Terry as an on the pitch example.

However, we're also looking at a situation where repeating the gesture week in, week out is of diminishing returns. Fans became ambivolent to it and eventually some have booed the gesture. That is why I argue that a gesture is only effective at the time of an incident. And if there is a future incident then yes, at that point a gesture is made.

If I as someone does not like racism have become ambivolent to the point I think "not again", then that point of "timed impact" surely has some relevance. Week in, week out, it just becomes (for want of a better word) "meh". Your football crowd is quite traditional compared to other sports (annd the fanfare before games in other countries), where unless there is an outside event demanding immdiate attention, we do just want to get on with the game.

Also, whether you like it or not, alot of people, including football fans, feel very uncomfortable about George Floyd becomeing even an accidental figurehead (the probable reason for some fans booing alongside boredom of the gesture when all they want is to see a game of football, not - necessarily - racism). You say that you don't care tha George Floyd was a criminal. Yes, I agree completely no-one deserves to be murdered and the person responsible is now in prison where he belongs - and being an ex-copper having his life made hell. What happened to him was completely wrong and yes, a deliberate murder given he said he couldn't breath due to his restraint and was ignored. But I'm not happy about using a man who robbed a woman at gunpoint amongst other offences as a role model (note I don't trust the pregnancy part of the story of the woman at gunpoint). Yes, later, he tried to reform his life and full credit to him for that, I will acknowledge. But his criminal background makes people feel uneasy and even suspicious of the "take the knee" protest due to that association.

You yourself have named a far better better role model in Marcus Rashford, who campaigned to ensure kids of school age did not go hungry during the pandemic. That man is a hero in my eyes for doing the right thing and that is who kids should be encouraged to look up to. Also, Marcus focussed on a UK issue. To me, events in certain areas of the US cannot be married to our own quest for equality. The situation in the US is very different to here where issues are much deeper and I think we need to focus on UK issues where UK people and goverment where a difference can be made directly relevant to the UK. Our legislation, albeit it with some tidying up needed, is in place. It's a matter of ensuring correct implementation along with effective education.


Yes, the taking the knee gesture predates the George Floyd incident. Also, I'll acknowlege that it has encouraged your children to discuss racism and they have thus conducted school projects on the matter of racism. That is part of a larger picture, including Marcus Rashford's actions for kids hungry during the pandemic. You are proposing it is used as a discussion point and thus an educational tool. Point conceded that it has helped educate children on the subject. "Why did people including footballers take the knee in June 2020? - discuss".

But I again have have to question the role model and I refer back to my point on using UK role models who have made a genuine difference.

Also, can a protest not be done to death such that it becomes invisible, like "Kick It Out"? I acknowledge that the various anti-racsim campaigns need to be refreshed and two years ago, the knee protest helped. But I refer also to my earlier comments of diminishing returns. Is the knee to face the same fate as "kick it out"?

Impact protest at the time of an event is more useful than dragging something on for week after week to the point you sicken people of it.



I refer to my remarks above.


I'd be more careful of your wording with this statement, pointing out that if I was directly called a racist I would consider that as an insult without an explanation of why I was called that. If my behaviour at a given point gave that impression to someone, then I would ask my accuser as why I'd given that impression. I have been very clear I do not think in that way. If that was directed at me, you truely have got me wrong.

But moving on and to summarise, my disagreement is with what I see as the overuse of a protest to the point it becomes either an irrelevance or people's discomfort due to the connection with George Floyd's past. That is not racisim, simply people expressing concerns over the protest as I have either due to overuse or those connections.

Because I'm not taking the knee or not supporting taking the knee week in (again, I don't boo), week out (as I said, targetted, peaceful impact at the time of an event), doesn't make me a racist.

To finsh, I note that Newcastle United has been cited as an example where "taking the knee" has been applauded. But do remeber that Newcastle and other clubs are owned by people and institutions whose records on the rights of women, non-Muslims, LGBTQ+ people and other minorities is far from perfect in their home countries. Yet the fans conveniently forget these issues as they think the money of these benefactors is going to buy them silverware.

So perhaps we need to look also at who owns UK football clubs.

Canny long that like!I wasn't calling you racist, just saying anyone of any political persuasion can be racist.I was not implying you were.I disagree about the role model thing .Martin Luther King is from the U.S,Nelson Mandela from South Africa(you will say he was a criminal too).Good role models.Wanting equality goes beyond borders.And I agree about Newcastle.I find it hypocritical of them to take the knee.Their owners are the worst country in the world for discrimination.It turns my stomach even more when they do the rainbow laces thing,considering they chuck guys from buildings.It wasn't me who mentioned them though

 

[Roker SOL]

Canny long that like!I wasn't calling you racist, just saying anyone of any political persuasion can be racist.I was not implying you were.I disagree about the role model thing .Martin Luther King is from the U.S,Nelson Mandela from South Africa(you will say he was a criminal too).Good role models.Wanting equality goes beyond borders.And I agree about Newcastle.I find it hypocritical of them to take the knee.Their owners are the worst country in the world for discrimination.It turns my stomach even more when they do the rainbow laces thing,considering they chuck guys from buildings.It wasn't me who mentioned them though

Hmm, Mandela was co-founder of uMkhonto we Sizwe in1961 before his arrest in 1962, the objective being the removal of the Apartheid Nationalist Government. There's a possible link with the Sharpville massacre of 1960 that briefly saw Mandela opt for more violent tactics against a clearly racist government where only a privileged minority could vote.

I understand Mandela's actions in the context of the situation the non-white population of South Africa was in, as that was about removal if an oppressive regime.

I wouldn't compare him with a man who committed criminal acts against his own community only for immediate gain, though I do acknowledge the latter got his act together later.

When you hear of peaceful protests against the Apartheid regime broken up by shooting, you can understand the steps that eventually decide more extreme action is needed. Mandela's actions at the time of de Clerk eventually assisted in calming the situation such that South Africa could move toward peace and reconciliation.

But that's definitely another debate.

 

[Bear Heed]

Okay, Monday is my busiest day and I should have waited until a quieter moment until I answered. In otherword, I just shouldn't try to respond to serious posts here on a Monday.

I don't know if I can hold to your above statement but more due to semantics. Snowflakes I've always understood to be on the left and go off on one despite being alledgedly liberal. The stereotype is then have a cry or rant, but rarely with that stereotype are they seen as violent (i.e. go and cry in a corner somewhere - probably a little harsh).

The right wing and reactionary equivalent is a gammon, who also loses the plot, so caled due to the colour they go when enraged by something they disagree with. They don't cry off and can have a go if pushed enough (the so called gammonflake).

To me, they're two different things, but we can disagree on that.


It was initially a strong, visible protest and in the short term I supported it. But that was not because of George Floyd, but becasue things were not perfect in this country, the UK (more later), where despite legislation we still have with some people a "them and us" systemic racism. However, has it achieved a strengthening of laws and legislation such that racism is on it's way out? I suggest not at this stage as it has not had the impact on the powers that be such as Government in the wider arena and the FA in football to act decisively and immediately.

I will note the FA is trying, with the now long established and visible "kick it out" campaign that does not impact on the 90 minutes of football. And noting the situation in cricket, they probably need to follow the same path. I acknowledge it has lost visibility and momentum, a point I'll come to later.

My argument is if a protest is not achieving it's aim of significant change, does it continue to have the same impact? Like alot of fans, yes, the point was made at the time that the behaviour of some was out of order and needed to be called out. I'm thinking immediately of John Terry as an on the pitch example.

However, we're also looking at a situation where repeating the gesture week in, week out is of diminishing returns. Fans became ambivolent to it and eventually some have booed the gesture. That is why I argue that a gesture is only effective at the time of an incident. And if there is a future incident then yes, at that point a gesture is made.

If I as someone does not like racism have become ambivolent to the point I think "not again", then that point of "timed impact" surely has some relevance. Week in, week out, it just becomes (for want of a better word) "meh". Your football crowd is quite traditional compared to other sports (annd the fanfare before games in other countries), where unless there is an outside event demanding immdiate attention, we do just want to get on with the game.

Also, whether you like it or not, alot of people, including football fans, feel very uncomfortable about George Floyd becomeing even an accidental figurehead (the probable reason for some fans booing alongside boredom of the gesture when all they want is to see a game of football, not - necessarily - racism). You say that you don't care tha George Floyd was a criminal. Yes, I agree completely no-one deserves to be murdered and the person responsible is now in prison where he belongs - and being an ex-copper having his life made hell. What happened to him was completely wrong and yes, a deliberate murder given he said he couldn't breath due to his restraint and was ignored. But I'm not happy about using a man who robbed a woman at gunpoint amongst other offences as a role model (note I don't trust the pregnancy part of the story of the woman at gunpoint). Yes, later, he tried to reform his life and full credit to him for that, I will acknowledge. But his criminal background makes people feel uneasy and even suspicious of the "take the knee" protest due to that association.

You yourself have named a far better better role model in Marcus Rashford, who campaigned to ensure kids of school age did not go hungry during the pandemic. That man is a hero in my eyes for doing the right thing and that is who kids should be encouraged to look up to. Also, Marcus focussed on a UK issue. To me, events in certain areas of the US cannot be married to our own quest for equality. The situation in the US is very different to here where issues are much deeper and I think we need to focus on UK issues where UK people and goverment where a difference can be made directly relevant to the UK. Our legislation, albeit it with some tidying up needed, is in place. It's a matter of ensuring correct implementation along with effective education.


Yes, the taking the knee gesture predates the George Floyd incident. Also, I'll acknowlege that it has encouraged your children to discuss racism and they have thus conducted school projects on the matter of racism. That is part of a larger picture, including Marcus Rashford's actions for kids hungry during the pandemic. You are proposing it is used as a discussion point and thus an educational tool. Point conceded that it has helped educate children on the subject. "Why did people including footballers take the knee in June 2020? - discuss".

But I again have have to question the role model and I refer back to my point on using UK role models who have made a genuine difference.

Also, can a protest not be done to death such that it becomes invisible, like "Kick It Out"? I acknowledge that the various anti-racsim campaigns need to be refreshed and two years ago, the knee protest helped. But I refer also to my earlier comments of diminishing returns. Is the knee to face the same fate as "kick it out"?

Impact protest at the time of an event is more useful than dragging something on for week after week to the point you sicken people of it.



I refer to my remarks above.


I'd be more careful of your wording with this statement, pointing out that if I was directly called a racist I would consider that as an insult without an explanation of why I was called that. If my behaviour at a given point gave that impression to someone, then I would ask my accuser as why I'd given that impression. I have been very clear I do not think in that way. If that was directed at me, you truely have got me wrong.

But moving on and to summarise, my disagreement is with what I see as the overuse of a protest to the point it becomes either an irrelevance or people's discomfort due to the connection with George Floyd's past. That is not racisim, simply people expressing concerns over the protest as I have either due to overuse or those connections.

Because I'm not taking the knee or not supporting taking the knee week in (again, I don't boo), week out (as I said, targetted, peaceful impact at the time of an event), doesn't make me a racist.

To finsh, I note that Newcastle United has been cited as an example where "taking the knee" has been applauded. But do remeber that Newcastle and other clubs are owned by people and institutions whose records on the rights of women, non-Muslims, LGBTQ+ people and other minorities is far from perfect in their home countries. Yet the fans conveniently forget these issues as they think the money of these benefactors is going to buy them silverware.

So perhaps we need to look also at who owns UK football clubs.

You make some very good points and that pretty much mirrors my feelings.

The whole campaign was well meaning and admirable which was why many people, myself included, were happy to support it. Since then the BLM aspect has been ditched, various sportsmen have decided to no longer participate and the message has become vague and confused. It's basically be nice to everyone, don't be prejudiced against anyone and don't say anything bad.

Personally I think this is why some people want it to end, it's become just a little like being lectured. Yes we know things aren't perfect but the vast majority of people are decent. There's also the point that being 'sent a message' by football players, who aren't any better than us, has become a little tedious. When some of these players are employed by Russians, Saudis, etc, and others convicted of racism, sexual assault, etc, it's a bit rich being 'educated' by them.

And, as you've said, George Floyd wasn't thinking of anyone but himself, certainly can't be compared to heroes like Mandela or MLK.

Anyway, that's my last post on here mate.

Just like the kneeling gesture, it's run it's course and is just dragging on.

 

[Skylon]

Hmm, Mandela was co-founder of uMkhonto we Sizwe in1961 before his arrest in 1962, the objective being the removal of the Apartheid Nationalist Government. There's a possible link with the Sharpville massacre of 1960 that briefly saw Mandela opt for more violent tactics against a clearly racist government where only a privileged minority could vote.

I understand Mandela's actions in the context of the situation the non-white population of South Africa was in, as that was about removal if an oppressive regime.

I wouldn't compare him with a man who committed criminal acts against his own community only for immediate gain, though I do acknowledge the latter got his act together later.

When you hear of peaceful protests against the Apartheid regime broken up by shooting, you can understand the steps that eventually decide more extreme action is needed. Mandela's actions at the time of de Clerk eventually assisted in calming the situation such that South Africa could move toward peace and reconciliation.

But that's definitely another debate.

I wasn't comparing him.I was saying it doesn't matter where your role model is from.Wrong end of stick again

You make some very good points and that pretty much mirrors my feelings.

The whole campaign was well meaning and admirable which was why many people, myself included, were happy to support it. Since then the BLM aspect has been ditched, various sportsmen have decided to no longer participate and the message has become vague and confused. It's basically be nice to everyone, don't be prejudiced against anyone and don't say anything bad.

Personally I think this is why some people want it to end, it's become just a little like being lectured. Yes we know things aren't perfect but the vast majority of people are decent. There's also the point that being 'sent a message' by football players, who aren't any better than us, has become a little tedious. When some of these players are employed by Russians, Saudis, etc, and others convicted of racism, sexual assault, etc, it's a bit rich being 'educated' by them.

And, as you've said, George Floyd wasn't thinking of anyone but himself, certainly can't be compared to heroes like Mandela or MLK.

Anyway, that's my last post on here mste.

Just like the kneeling gesture, it's run it's course and is just dragging on.

Who is comparing him to Mandela?I was saying it doesn't matter where your role model is from.You lads are funny!

 

[RossTheNinja]

According to who? Why were the Gillingham players kneeling then? Why did the England national team kneel during The Euros? Why did multiple England national team players, and manager make it clear that it was an anti-racism campaign?

According to whom is exactly the point. If you see it as such, fine. Some people see it as supporting BLM, who are a terrible organisation. It would appear that people who didn't mind, or liked BLM are happy to change their association with kneeling.

If you're eating a cake, It's easier to notice something you hate than something you like. BLM is baked into the knee for a lot of people.
It's gotten stale and we need to move on. It's doing more harm than good.

(I'm hungry now)

 

[Safc98]

Okay, Monday is my busiest day and I should have waited until a quieter moment until I answered. In otherword, I just shouldn't try to respond to serious posts here on a Monday.

I don't know if I can hold to your above statement but more due to semantics. Snowflakes I've always understood to be on the left and go off on one despite being alledgedly liberal. The stereotype is then have a cry or rant, but rarely with that stereotype are they seen as violent (i.e. go and cry in a corner somewhere - probably a little harsh).

The right wing and reactionary equivalent is a gammon, who also loses the plot, so caled due to the colour they go when enraged by something they disagree with. They don't cry off and can have a go if pushed enough (the so called gammonflake).

To me, they're two different things, but we can disagree on that.


It was initially a strong, visible protest and in the short term I supported it. But that was not because of George Floyd, but becasue things were not perfect in this country, the UK (more later), where despite legislation we still have with some people a "them and us" systemic racism. However, has it achieved a strengthening of laws and legislation such that racism is on it's way out? I suggest not at this stage as it has not had the impact on the powers that be such as Government in the wider arena and the FA in football to act decisively and immediately.

I will note the FA is trying, with the now long established and visible "kick it out" campaign that does not impact on the 90 minutes of football. And noting the situation in cricket, they probably need to follow the same path. I acknowledge it has lost visibility and momentum, a point I'll come to later.

My argument is if a protest is not achieving it's aim of significant change, does it continue to have the same impact? Like alot of fans, yes, the point was made at the time that the behaviour of some was out of order and needed to be called out. I'm thinking immediately of John Terry as an on the pitch example.

However, we're also looking at a situation where repeating the gesture week in, week out is of diminishing returns. Fans became ambivolent to it and eventually some have booed the gesture. That is why I argue that a gesture is only effective at the time of an incident. And if there is a future incident then yes, at that point a gesture is made.

If I as someone does not like racism have become ambivolent to the point I think "not again", then that point of "timed impact" surely has some relevance. Week in, week out, it just becomes (for want of a better word) "meh". Your football crowd is quite traditional compared to other sports (annd the fanfare before games in other countries), where unless there is an outside event demanding immdiate attention, we do just want to get on with the game.

Also, whether you like it or not, alot of people, including football fans, feel very uncomfortable about George Floyd becomeing even an accidental figurehead (the probable reason for some fans booing alongside boredom of the gesture when all they want is to see a game of football, not - necessarily - racism). You say that you don't care tha George Floyd was a criminal. Yes, I agree completely no-one deserves to be murdered and the person responsible is now in prison where he belongs - and being an ex-copper having his life made hell. What happened to him was completely wrong and yes, a deliberate murder given he said he couldn't breath due to his restraint and was ignored. But I'm not happy about using a man who robbed a woman at gunpoint amongst other offences as a role model (note I don't trust the pregnancy part of the story of the woman at gunpoint). Yes, later, he tried to reform his life and full credit to him for that, I will acknowledge. But his criminal background makes people feel uneasy and even suspicious of the "take the knee" protest due to that association.

You yourself have named a far better better role model in Marcus Rashford, who campaigned to ensure kids of school age did not go hungry during the pandemic. That man is a hero in my eyes for doing the right thing and that is who kids should be encouraged to look up to. Also, Marcus focussed on a UK issue. To me, events in certain areas of the US cannot be married to our own quest for equality. The situation in the US is very different to here where issues are much deeper and I think we need to focus on UK issues where UK people and goverment where a difference can be made directly relevant to the UK. Our legislation, albeit it with some tidying up needed, is in place. It's a matter of ensuring correct implementation along with effective education.


Yes, the taking the knee gesture predates the George Floyd incident. Also, I'll acknowlege that it has encouraged your children to discuss racism and they have thus conducted school projects on the matter of racism. That is part of a larger picture, including Marcus Rashford's actions for kids hungry during the pandemic. You are proposing it is used as a discussion point and thus an educational tool. Point conceded that it has helped educate children on the subject. "Why did people including footballers take the knee in June 2020? - discuss".

But I again have have to question the role model and I refer back to my point on using UK role models who have made a genuine difference.

Also, can a protest not be done to death such that it becomes invisible, like "Kick It Out"? I acknowledge that the various anti-racsim campaigns need to be refreshed and two years ago, the knee protest helped. But I refer also to my earlier comments of diminishing returns. Is the knee to face the same fate as "kick it out"?

Impact protest at the time of an event is more useful than dragging something on for week after week to the point you sicken people of it.



I refer to my remarks above.


I'd be more careful of your wording with this statement, pointing out that if I was directly called a racist I would consider that as an insult without an explanation of why I was called that. If my behaviour at a given point gave that impression to someone, then I would ask my accuser as why I'd given that impression. I have been very clear I do not think in that way. If that was directed at me, you truely have got me wrong.

But moving on and to summarise, my disagreement is with what I see as the overuse of a protest to the point it becomes either an irrelevance or people's discomfort due to the connection with George Floyd's past. That is not racisim, simply people expressing concerns over the protest as I have either due to overuse or those connections.

Because I'm not taking the knee or not supporting taking the knee week in (again, I don't boo), week out (as I said, targetted, peaceful impact at the time of an event), doesn't make me a racist.

To finsh, I note that Newcastle United has been cited as an example where "taking the knee" has been applauded. But do remeber that Newcastle and other clubs are owned by people and institutions whose records on the rights of women, non-Muslims, LGBTQ+ people and other minorities is far from perfect in their home countries. Yet the fans conveniently forget these issues as they think the money of these benefactors is going to buy them silverware.

So perhaps we need to look also at who owns UK football clubs.

Well said When you talk about impact, think of an action we took recently. We wore our blue and yellow away kit at home to support a cause for victims of Ukraine. It was a one off, taking the knee has become imo similar to if we decided to wear blue and yellow as long as there is war in Ukraine. People would tire of it.

 

[Roker SOL]

I wasn't comparing him.I was saying it doesn't matter where your role model is from.Wrong end of stick again.

Not this time as I do not agree with your point on role models and figureheads. It does matter and I think in this context, you're possibly missing the point a little here.

You have to compare unfortunately if you want credulity to a campaign. Mandela's actions were in his eyes a last resort to an oppressive regime. George Floyd as said was, formerly, a person who committed crime for gain with no political motivations against his own community - and he is being used as a role model by some.

The figurehead does matter and I know who I would use.

But as said, we have our own Marcus Rashford who makes an ideal domestic figurehead.

It's gotten stale and we need to move on. It's doing more harm than good.

(I'm hungry now)

Yup, agreed. And I need my nibbles.

 

[Skylon]

Not this time as I do not agree with your point on role models and figureheads. It does matter and I think in this context, you're possibly missing the point a little here.

You have to compare unfortunately if you want credulity to a campaign. Mandela's actions were in his eyes a last resort to an oppressive regime. George Floyd as said was, formerly, a person who committed crime for gain with no political motivations against his own community - and he is being used as a role model by some.

The figurehead does matter and I know who I would use.

But as said, we have our own Marcus Rashford who makes an ideal domestic figurehead.

Yup, agreed. And I need my nibbles.

I was making the point that role models don't have to be from this country.Nowt to do with George Floyd.Are you a bit obsessed with him?And I chose Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela as examples,because they are not from this country.Well done at missing the point ......again!

Well said When you talk about impact, think of an action we took recently. We wore our blue and yellow away kit at home to support a cause for victims of Ukraine. It was a one off, taking the knee has become imo similar to if we decided to wear blue and yellow as long as there is war in Ukraine. People would tire of it.

You could also think of kick racism out,which has been around for years.Yet a lot of you are praising this initiative

According to whom is exactly the point. If you see it as such, fine. Some people see it as supporting BLM, who are a terrible organisation. It would appear that people who didn't mind, or liked BLM are happy to change their association with kneeling.

If you're eating a cake, It's easier to notice something you hate than something you like. BLM is baked into the knee for a lot of people.
It's gotten stale and we need to move on. It's doing more harm than good.

(I'm hungry now)

I know a couple of lads that boo the knee,and they are proper racists!