Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

[SYB_DC]

All that will happen is they'll withdraw for the time being, learn from their mistakes this time round, bolster their forces over time and try again later.

And for those that doubt that outcome, the Russians literally did that with Chechnya. They lost the first time and just tried again in 5 years.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

It's not our cities being razed to the ground though, its not our families being killed and displaced.

And it's not our country that would become nothing more than vasal state.

 

[The Great Soprendo]

Ukraine would become a vasal state. With no Ukrainian military, the Russians could roll in the tanks anytime they wanted.

No way they should agree to demilitarisation, IMO. Every country has the right to defend itself. Most of the Russian demands will be difficult to swallow, but I do wonder if there's a long game here though...concede a little eg Crimea, and for a referendum in the breakaway states, put on hold any ambitions to join NATO/EU (fingers crossed behind their back, waiting for Putin to keel over), but maintain their right to defend themselves and to full independence, with some tangible and verifiable concession from Russia to enhance their security while maintaining independence from NATO/EU (eg 'we agree never to join NATO as long as not a single Russian troop is on Ukrainian soil, but we will join the minute one crosses the border uninvited).

 

[Wilsonian]

I'm not sure what the relevance is of this but it was in 2010 so after the invasion of Georgia.

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Lynchian bizarre.

wtf

 

[Frijj]

Why do Russia think they have any right to tell Ukraine what they can and cannot do, regarding NATO, the EU, and their military?

 

[SYB_DC]

No way they should agree to demilitarisation, IMO. Every country has the right to defend itself. Most of the Russian demands will be difficult to swallow, but I do wonder if there's a long game here though...concede a little eg Crimea, and for a referendum in the breakaway states, put on hold any ambitions to join NATO/EU (fingers crossed behind their back, waiting for Putin to keel over), but maintain their right to defend themselves and to full independence, with some tangible and verifiable concession from Russia to enhance their security while maintaining independence from NATO/EU (eg 'we agree never to join NATO as long as not a single Russian troop is on Ukrainian soil, but we will join the minute one crosses the border uninvited).

And never mind that back at the breakup of the USSR, Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for a treaty-enshrined promise by Russia to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity.

Yeah, agreements with Russia work really well when they leave you vulnerable. Yeah.

Why do Russia think they have any right to tell Ukraine what they can and cannot do, regarding NATO, the EU, and their military?

Because the fundamental Russian belief is that they should own Ukraine. It's really that simple.

 

[Frijj]

No way they should agree to demilitarisation, IMO. Every country has the right to defend itself. Most of the Russian demands will be difficult to swallow, but I do wonder if there's a long game here though...concede a little eg Crimea, and for a referendum in the breakaway states, put on hold any ambitions to join NATO/EU (fingers crossed behind their back, waiting for Putin to keel over), but maintain their right to defend themselves and to full independence, with some tangible and verifiable concession from Russia to enhance their security while maintaining independence from NATO/EU (eg 'we agree never to join NATO as long as not a single Russian troop is on Ukrainian soil, but we will join the minute one crosses the border uninvited).

If they demilitarise, Russia will invade again in the future and walk all over them.

The very fact they need their military now is exactly why they should not demilitarise.

 

[West_Winger]

Why do Russia think they have any right to tell Ukraine what they can and cannot do, regarding NATO, the EU, and their military?

It’s amazing the number of people who love a bit of sovereignty who are now saying Ukraine should literally give up its sovereignty

 

[Frijj]

And never mind that back at the breakup of the USSR, Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for a treaty-enshrined promise by Russia to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity.

Yeah, agreements with Russia work really well when they leave you vulnerable. Yeah.

Because the fundamental Russian belief is that they should own Ukraine. It's really that simple.

I mean I get “why” but I do not get why. If you get me

 

[Lonz]

The Ukraine govt should agree to that as they will end up with nowt and stop this bloodshed.

That doesn't discount the possibility of even more bloodshed happening in future.

 

[Frijj]

It’s amazing the number of people who love a bit of sovereignty who are now saying Ukraine should literally give up its sovereignty

If the Germans invaded the UK, shelled our cities and killed our civilians, but promised to stop if we disbanded our army and gave them significant proportions of our land…would we take that offer?

 

[wisemensaysteve]

And never mind that back at the breakup of the USSR, Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for a treaty-enshrined promise by Russia to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity.

Yeah, agreements with Russia work really well when they leave you vulnerable. Yeah.

Because the fundamental Russian belief is that they should own Ukraine. It's really that simple.

England and the USA also promised to defend Ukraine as part of the deal, what happened to that?

 

[Wilsonian]

Why do Russia think they have any right to tell Ukraine what they can and cannot do, regarding NATO, the EU, and their military?

Entitlement seasoned with paranoia would be my guess.

 

[SYB_DC]

I mean I get “why” but I do not get why. If you get me

Ah, that nebulous "why" that translates to something like "why should they expect that anyone else should treat them as raving lunatics for believing that..."

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

No way they should agree to demilitarisation, IMO. Every country has the right to defend itself. Most of the Russian demands will be difficult to swallow, but I do wonder if there's a long game here though...concede a little eg Crimea, and for a referendum in the breakaway states, put on hold any ambitions to join NATO/EU (fingers crossed behind their back, waiting for Putin to keel over), but maintain their right to defend themselves and to full independence, with some tangible and verifiable concession from Russia to enhance their security while maintaining independence from NATO/EU (eg 'we agree never to join NATO as long as not a single Russian troop is on Ukrainian soil, but we will join the minute one crosses the border uninvited).

Russia would just send troops undercover into the breakaway regions and simply call them volunteers. You could never police that. The GRU would be all over the place. If the breakaway states remain part of Ukraine they could veto any move to join NATO or the EU.

 

[bomber]

Macron is under pressure at home cos he's useless and smells.

That much pressure that his party are 1/7 to win.

 

[Frijj]

The Ukraine govt should agree to that as they will end up with nowt and stop this bloodshed.

For a bloke who repeatedly states his manly credentials on here, who openly looks down on other people as being lesser men, I find it staggering you think Ukraine should bend over and take one.

If a bloke bigger than you fancied a piece of your missus and smacked you around a bit, would you lie there whimpering and cowering in the corner?

Ukraine have done nothing wrong. We should back them to the hilt if we want to defend democracy. Giving in to Russia’s demands mean every Ukrainian death has been for nothing. Fuck all. People have died so Putin can get what he wants…AGAIN.

 

[cosmicchris00]

I wish I had the confidence that others do that this won't end up in nuclear war. I completely get the argument that no one wins, and that Putin can't achieve his objectives if it goes nuclear. But, if we accept that, why is he trying to provoke nato? He seems to want to bring them into it. I mean, aye, it strengthens the bullshit argument he's making to his people about nato being a threat to Russia, but they can't even take Ukraine so, in terms of conventional warfare, its absolutely obvious that nato countries would destroy his forces if they had to get involved. So why does he want that? If I was him I'd be desperately hoping nato didn't get involved. If they do, then what does he do, sit back and accept defeat? People talk about "don't poke the bear" but surely nato are the bear, if they get involved he's fucked and he's constantly poking it. So what's his aim there if he isn't prepared to go nuclear?

It's difficult to say with this galloping thunderc*nt but I suppose the answer lies in his self preservation instinct.

These tinpot dictators always end up having to manufacture something somewhere to make the necessary shitness of their existence seem more plausible to their people.

Vlad and his lads have nicked all the family silver and left Joe Vodka-bottle with nowt and (dead) people were starting to notice.

All this nazi stuff about the neighbours and NATO coming for them should draw the Ruskis back together and could save their hideous elite hides from the pitchfork.

He also has his eye on the yet to be tapped Ukrainian oil, gas and mineral wealth

 

[SYB_DC]

England and the USA also promised to defend Ukraine as part of the deal, what happened to that?

Their lawyers read the agreement and saw that's not what it actually says. It provides security "assurances," not "guarantees," which are different things in international law.

 

[den]

It's not our cities being razed to the ground though, its not our families being killed and displaced.

He did threaten us with nuclear annihilation though. The murdering of innocent civilians needs to stop right now, but we need to keep the pressure on Putin and his cronies.