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Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

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Kevj said:
No, but at the same time, they certainly aren’t covering themselves in glory. This has been a PR disaster for Putin’s army. Away from any actual fighting, it seems they can’t organise sufficient fuel to get to a planned destination. Military leaders the rest of the world over surely must be less concerned about going toe to toe with them if this did escalate or spill over into other territories. It is only they nuclear capability which has stopped everyone piling in and stopping this on the ground very quickly.
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I'm not convinced they've thrown everything they have at it, their army has something like 900,000 soldiers in it. Though to be totally honest I haven't seen any figures since they had 150,000 around the borders so they might have a lot more in Ukraine than I know.

Agree with your point regarding their shoddy logistics support.
 
Hugh Gains said:
The Ukrainians are embedded in dense areas, it's a cross country war. Find me a war were civilians haven't been collateral damage. It's terrible either way but it's not the indiscriminate killing of civilians.




Finally a fair take.
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That old couple murdered in the car looked pretty indiscriminate to me mind. The car was torn up by thousands of rounds. It will all come out in the war crimes investigation but I’m expecting a lot of incidents.
 
sonson said:
Must admit I missed that bit in my Masters, about who the goodies abd baddies are. And that included being taught by Sir Ian Kershaw on the Nazis for a semester. He said it serves no purpose saying that historical figures, regimes etc are evil or monsters. It tells you nothing about what they did/do. You look at *what* they did, *what* they believe and you will naturally apply your own morality anyway . Kershaw wrote the seminal biography of Hitler but he dosent once say in however many thousand pages that Hitler was evil, because he dosent need to. If you read about all he did and don't come to that conclusion yourself, you never will, theres no helping someone there.

But hey, I'm not sure if he had two degrees like you.

Re the US- existed for less than 250 years, fought in 102 wars, not included the wars against the people they took the land from in the first place, currently involved in 3 in Yemen, Somalia and Syria. I don't need to argue they're addicted to war.

I just explained an outlook from two different perspectives ie non western ones. It is a fact that Russia and China have a different perspective on their imperialism than we do, just as it is a fact that most of the territories of the British Empire has a different perspective on that than the British or the subjects of Rome did to the Romans etc.

The absence of me saying afterwards "and therefore they're evil" dosen"t mean I think they're good. Although for what irs worth I'm morally opposed to all imperialism, and I've said that dozens of times on here. On this thread I've condemned Russia multiple times.

But rather than establishing that context, you took *one post* as am opportunity to take offence, believe that my explanation if a historical outlook was the same as my moral stance, and to try and beat me over the head with your two degrees.

Which just goes to show you can have two degrees and still be completely ignorant I suppose.
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Sometimes in life you have to choose sides.
 
archfiend said:
That old couple murdered in the car looked pretty indiscriminate to me mind. The car was torn up by thousands of rounds. It will all come out in the war crimes investigation but I’m expecting a lot of incidents.
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To be honest that car looked like it had been hit by a bomb/missile/mine. There was hardly any damage on the passenger side and the bonnet and left hand front looked like shrapnel.

Still horrible but i think thousands of rounds is an exaggeration.
 
archfiend said:
That old couple murdered in the car looked pretty indiscriminate to me mind. The car was torn up by thousands of rounds. It will all come out in the war crimes investigation but I’m expecting a lot of incidents.
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That was horrendous and looks like an obvious war crime but it’s very difficult to confirm without context. Even such graphic imagery needs to be considered very cautiously. Sadly in a social media driven reporting environment we can’t take much at face value. That said I have no doubt war crimes will have been committed, it’s sadly the nature of war, relatively normal people are driven to do awful things. Hopefully justice via The Hague will eventually be served.
 
Ive noticed a few posters looking for justification and using terms collateral damage for civilian deaths. In this conflict, one side has been the aggressor and invaded the other. It was not a joint decision to go to war with each other.

Its not acceptable, IMHO, to dismiss or justify civilian casualties like this, as its not like the 2 sides have gone to war with objectives against each other, where you can say "oh well that's the price you pay for your objective".
 
Just been reported in the Süddeutsche Zeitung that Germany will deliver 2700 Strela anti-aircraft missiles. Apparently all of this is coming from the old East German stock that is still lying about here. Quite mad to think that these weapons, which were made by Russians, could end up killing loads of them over 30 years later!
 
Beery said:
Ive noticed a few posters looking for justification and using terms collateral damage for civilian deaths. In this conflict, one side has been the aggressor and invaded the other. It was not a joint decision to go to war with each other.

Its not acceptable, IMHO, to dismiss or justify civilian casualties like this, as its not like the 2 sides have gone to war with objectives against each other, where you can say "oh well that's the price you pay for your objective".
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There’s never any justification for civilian deaths but they always happen in war. There is a difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and civilians being killed in a conflict zone but still no excuse for indiscriminate use of bombing and of course an unintended death of a civilian is no less tragic.
 
I hope all the war mongers of the world hang their heads in shame, war is never glorious, every time it happens it’s ugly disgusting, vile and evil. it’s a tragedy this sort of shit happens again and again where innocent people get caught in the cross fire of geopolitical brinkmanship
 
Scorer said:
There’s never any justification for civilian deaths but they always happen in war. There is a difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and civilians being killed in a conflict zone but still no excuse for indiscriminate use of bombing and of course an unintended death of a civilian is no less tragic.
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I'm sorry but this war has only been instigated by one side. Regardless of whether these deaths were accidental or on purpose. They are 100% unnecessary and could have been avoided, by simply not invading
 
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