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Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

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John the Savage said:
Under Article 5 Ukraine is an Ally of NATO -which means if it's attacked, NATO will act.
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this is the text of Article 5 - i have seen other variants of the text which mentions NATO allies, but its referencing the members themselves as allies rather than any third party

Article 5​

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security
 
DJP said:
Just read that Turkish President Erdogan and Hungary's leader Orban have condemned Russia. I always though they were allies of Russia so Putin seems to be turning Russia into a pariah state. Have China said owt yet?
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Chinese officials have instructed media outlets not to say anything negative about what's happened and Pakistan's premier Imran Khan is currently having a laugh and a joke with Putin in Moscow.
 
Frijj said:
How many NATO countries can be involved before NATO as a whole is involved? Loads of NATO countries were involved in Iraq.

I’m not seeing argument here…I’m just saying I don’t understand why NATO membership is overriding all our moral obligations here.

Ireland aren’t in NATO. What if Russia decided to invade Ireland. Should we do nothing?
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We'd get the Russians out on our own if they invaded. Mind you, it would take 500 years and we'd end up speaking Russian but we'd get there in the end.

More seriously Ireland is neutral for historical and practical reasons (but on the side of NATO by allowing US military flights to land here and refuel willy nilly) but I have believed for ages that we should join NATO officially, not that we have a lot to offer from a military perspective.
 
John the Savage said:
Under Article 5 Ukraine is an Ally of NATO -which means if it's attacked, NATO will act.
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Article 5​


The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.


Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Nope, only applies to signatories, Ukraine hasn't joined NATO
 
bomber said:
Apparently 60% of its exports are oil and gas.In 40-60 years that'll likely be gone.
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Going renewable and moving away from oil and gas isn't just a strong move for climate change, it also puts us in a safer position economically/ defensively. There was a point in the mid 2010s when Sweden had a bigger economy than Russia.
 
Frijj said:
How many NATO countries can be involved before NATO as a whole is involved? Loads of NATO countries were involved in Iraq.

I’m not seeing argument here…I’m just saying I don’t understand why NATO membership is overriding all our moral obligations here.

Ireland aren’t in NATO. What if Russia decided to invade Ireland. Should we do nothing?
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Again, it's not really a "moral" obligation. Ireland is on our doorstep. It's about self-preservation.
 
Scotty said:
come on mate - you're better than this

spouting implausible scenarios is'nt fostering relevant debate
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It is. It absolutely is, because so many people have “NATO membership” as the lynchpin of their argument.

If NATO membership alone, is the sole reason why we are not intervening, if it is the sole reason why we would intervene, then it’s relevant.

Loads of people on this thread have said that NATO membership is their threshold for action.

For example, Wrenthorpe said we shouldn’t defend Ukraine, because of the risk of a nuclear retaliation. He did say we should defend Estonia, because they’re in NATO.

Ireland aren’t in NATO. Neither are Finland. If Russia attacked either of those countries, would we sit and do nothing? Would France do nothing? What about the Yanks?

If the answer is they’d do something differently then posters using NATO membership alone as their argument are clearly using other justifications they are not making clear.
 
SAFC Wilks said:
Did they actually say that? Latest I seen from China is that they don’t agree with the US sanctions.

That’s different to them saying they back Russia in the invasion.

Although I’m aware they probably will back it so they can take Taiwan.
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yeh you are right to be fair but there is a notable difference in their tone compared to the statements coming out of every other country
 
Wrenthorpe Mackem said:
Sanctions, military support in terms of providing weapons. That's not turning a blind eye.

Troops on the ground risks escalation into a world war and a nuclear war.
We don't want that.
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While sanctions don’t do nothing they will do very little with China’s 1 billion population to prop them up.

Unfortunately War is inevitable now in my opinion. It’s just a matter of time before he pushes in to NATO areas such as Poland etc.
 
Frijj said:
Would you “accept defeat” if a hostile, nuclear power successfully invaded the UK, and the Americans decided not to get involved?

Hypothetical scenario. Just wondering what your threshold for action is.
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Do you have kids? Here’s one for you if a bully as you put it, had a gun directly to your kids head, and said move on now or I’ll shoot to kill. What is your next action?
 
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