Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

[Shambo]

Historically strong links to Russia, and lots of Russians living there.
Disrupted by EU attempts to expand eastwards, and EU's subsequent support for the military coup against the democratically elected pro-Russia government. Putin finally put his foot down.

Certainly puts to bed the argument that the EU has maintained peace in Europe - they've actually pushed us to the brink of war

Oh my word

 

[CEF]

Oh my word

But, but, passport queue.

 

[bomber]

Oh my word

Another one for the CEF hall of fame.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

All that tells me is that you’re drawn into the narrative from the propaganda you read and watch from one side of a complex situation all day every day.

Have you ever considered looking at these things from a wider perspective?

Again you just avoid the actual issues.

1) So it's ok for Russia to kick up a stink and claim to fired warning shots at a lone British destroyer that in international waters passed by Crimea?

2) So it's ok for a Russian naval battlegroup to practice drills off the coast of Ireland when included in that battlegroup will be submarines armed with nuclear warheads. This at the same time Russia warns about the future potential placement in its own backyard of nuclear missiles in NATO countries close to Russia.

3) So its ok to defend Russia by saying those warships were in international waters and we were wrong to drop sensors into the ocean to help in the integrated tracking of those submarines that have the firepower to destroy several British cities while at the same time Putin rattles his nukes in a warning to the West. I'd rather place the safety of the UK in the actions of any NATO submarines in the area than the threats of Putin.

4) Do you think the Russians would accept an American naval group with nuclear submarines engaging in naval drills just off the coast of Crimea even if they were in international waters?

5) Do you not accept the rights of Ukraine to continue as a free sovereign state?

6) Do you not accept the right of Ukraine to self determine if it forms military alliances with any other country or organisation? Other countries can why not Ukraine. Russia has formed one with China. Oh I know there is no signed bit of paper but military groups join together in manoeuvres so they can better integrate and form a unified force as I have been told on here.

7) The other stuff you posted about the presence of American bases in other countries is a complex issue built up over 77 years. I don't think the Americans should have had bases in any Arab country but to quote Afghanistan is ridiculous because the American were attacking those who had attacked America. Russia was also in Afghanistan but to prop up a communist Afghan government, it wasn't in response to an attack or in self defence.

8) The wider global conflict is a different issue. This is about Ukraine and the bully boy tactics of a Russian thug.

 

[Hair Flick]

Again you just avoid the actual issues.

1) So it's ok for Russia to kick up a stink and claim to fired warning shots at a lone British destroyer that in international waters passed by Crimea?

2) So it's ok for a Russian naval battlegroup to practice drills off the coast of Ireland when included in that battlegroup will be submarines armed with nuclear warheads. This at the same time Russia warns about the future potential placement in its own backyard of nuclear missiles in NATO countries close to Russia.

3) So its ok to defend Russia by saying those warships were in international waters and we were wrong to drop sensors into the ocean to help in the integrated tracking of those submarines that have the firepower to destroy several British cities while at the same time Putin rattles his nukes in a warning to the West. I'd rather place the safety of the UK in the actions of any NATO submarines in the area than the threats of Putin.

4) Do you think the Russians would accept an American naval group with nuclear submarines engaging in naval drills just off the coast of Crimea even if they were in international waters?

5) Do you not accept the rights of Ukraine to continue as a free sovereign state?

6) Do you not accept the right of Ukraine to self determine if it forms military alliances with any other country or organisation? Other countries can why not Ukraine. Russia has formed one with China. Oh I know there is no signed bit of paper but military groups join together in manoeuvres so they can better integrate and form a unified force as I have been told on here.

7) The other stuff you posted about the presence of American bases in other countries is a complex issue built up over 77 years. I don't think the Americans should have had bases in any Arab country but to quote Afghanistan is ridiculous because the American were attacking those who had attacked America. Russia was also in Afghanistan but to prop up a communist Afghan government, it wasn't in response to an attack or in self defence.

8) The wider global conflict is a different issue. This is about Ukraine and the bully boy tactics of a Russian thug.

Points 5 & 8 sum up precisely what I said earlier.

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[CEF]

Another one for the CEF hall of fame.

But, but, free texts abroad.

 

[Cockney Mackem]

Interesting thread here

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[MonkeyLove]

As a geography student I’m only partially qualified in geopolitics, but I’d say he’s more likely to be making a public display of Russia’s strength in protecting their western border. He panicked with the Baltics aligning with the EU and would definitely ensure that Ukraine is ran by a Kremlin-sympathetic leader. He definitely did this with Belarus back in the 90s, and I’m sure he did this with Poland and Hungary, manipulation of their elections resulting in the election of far right scum like Orban and Duda, which destabilised the EU and also gave him a couple of puppets for further damage. Not only would this strengthen further their own border with the EU and NATO, but he’d also likely ensure that Russia “protects” Ukraine so long as Russia can have a large naval base on the Black Sea. They massively lack a large warm water port so this would be ideal for Putin for export and military purposes. It would also explain why he’s been cosying up with Erdogan, so that Russia has no issues entering the Mediterranean via the Bosphorus Strait. I personally don’t think this will result in annexation of Ukraine, though they have some nice agricultural land there’s not much else to gain other than more people to struggle with feeding. All IMO of course!

I agree with most of that but a Black Sea port isn’t much use to Putin for the reason you mention that it’s access is via Turkey and in any future conflict with NATO as a member they would have to shut it off. Not a risk Putin can take to build up large numbers of ships there long term. Hence why he has always supported Assad because their port in Tartus is crucial for him

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

Points 5 & 8 sum up precisely what I said earlier.

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Funny.

Oh we have been the bad guys on many occasions over the last 77 years. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Chile, Nicaragua, Iraq, Libya and others but more than often America rather than NATO as a whole. Much of it during the global Cold War chess game against Russia. Ukraine should not be just another pawn in their game though.

 

[Hair Flick]

Funny.

Oh we have been the bad guys on many occasions over the last 77 years. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Chile, Nicaragua, Iraq, Libya and others but more than often America rather than NATO as a whole. Much of it during the global Cold War chess game against Russia. Ukraine should not be just another pawn in their game though.

Well at least we agree on something. Ukraine is being played as a pawn by both sides.

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Historically strong links to Russia, and lots of Russians living there.
Disrupted by EU attempts to expand eastwards, and EU's subsequent support for the military coup against the democratically elected pro-Russia government. Putin finally put his foot down.

Certainly puts to bed the argument that the EU has maintained peace in Europe - they've actually pushed us to the brink of war

Are you ok? I mean really ok?

 

[MoreSouthAmericans]

Historically strong links to Russia, and lots of Russians living there.
Disrupted by EU attempts to expand eastwards, and EU's subsequent support for the military coup against the democratically elected pro-Russia government. Putin finally put his foot down.

Certainly puts to bed the argument that the EU has maintained peace in Europe - they've actually pushed us to the brink of war

The EU is not the issue it's NATO, they are different things.

 

[Suomifinland]

Historically strong links to Russia, and lots of Russians living there.
Disrupted by EU attempts to expand eastwards, and EU's subsequent support for the military coup against the democratically elected pro-Russia government. Putin finally put his foot down.

Certainly puts to bed the argument that the EU has maintained peace in Europe - they've actually pushed us to the brink of war

Putin is a child of the USSR. It made him who he is & he openly mourns it.
Ukraine was a hugely important part of the USSR. In crimea they had a warm water naval base & many senior leaders came from there.
Even softer stuff. Look at the 86 & 88 USSR footy squads - 90% Ukrainian.
Ukraine moving westwards is just simply unacceptable for him. Imagine Texas leaving the USA 25 Yr ago & then progressively aligning with Russia for example. And that on top the Caribbean nations doing same. Intolerable for him.

 

[Hendonbeach]

Interesting thread here

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Just read “Putin’s People : How The KGB Took Back Russia And Then Took On The West” Catherine Belton . She used to be Moscow correspondent for Financial Times so she follows the money . According to her it was Tony Blair in late 90s that encouraged the Russian’s to bring vast amounts of to UK with no questions asked ,by early 2000 Londongrad was the capital new name .

 

[Suomifinland]

The EU is not the issue it's NATO, they are different things.

I honestly think it's both.

Issue with NATO as it is seen as a direct threat & encirclement. He'll be worried its Asia next.
Issue with EU is a Russian culture nation on his doorstep potentially doing well. How would that be viewed at home if they have a far higher standard of living & democracy?

He can't have either.

 

[Shandy drinker]

Nice to see the defence minister was on holiday

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Just read “Putin’s People : How The KGB Took Back Russia And Then Took On The West” Catherine Belton . She used to be Moscow correspondent for Financial Times so she follows the money . According to her it was Tony Blair in late 90s that encouraged the Russian’s to bring vast amounts of to UK with no questions asked ,by early 2000 Londongrad was the capital new name .

Nee it would be labours fault
Tories have been fluffing Russia and China for years

 

[r@mside]

Again you just avoid the actual issues.

These aren't the actual issues, they're just a mish mash of half truths, claims and counter claims that you elevate to greater importance than they really have. Much of what's concerning you is little more than typical major power posturing.

1) So it's ok for Russia to kick up a stink and claim to fired warning shots at a lone British destroyer that in international waters passed by Crimea?

I think you'll find it was largely our media kicking up the stink. Russia made a claim, we denied it and a reporter on the destroyer made a big drama about some planes flying over.

2) So it's ok for a Russian naval battlegroup to practice drills off the coast of Ireland when included in that battlegroup will be submarines armed with nuclear warheads. This at the same time Russia warns about the future potential placement in its own backyard of nuclear missiles in NATO countries close to Russia.

It is ok. Russia was legally entitled to make those drills, gave notice of its plans and cancelled them when asked by the Irish government. Another fuss about nothing.

3) So its ok to defend Russia by saying those warships were in international waters and we were wrong to drop sensors into the ocean to help in the integrated tracking of those submarines that have the firepower to destroy several British cities while at the same time Putin rattles his nukes in a warning to the West. I'd rather place the safety of the UK in the actions of any NATO submarines in the area than the threats of Putin.

This has nothing to do with the Ukraine crisis and seems more about people exaggerating facts to create their own fantasy.

4) Do you think the Russians would accept an American naval group with nuclear submarines engaging in naval drills just off the coast of Crimea even if they were in international waters?

They do, regularly and there have been a couple of large scale drills in the last year.

5) Do you not accept the rights of Ukraine to continue as a free sovereign state?

That's a daft question in the circumstances. No government is saying it can't

6) Do you not accept the right of Ukraine to self determine if it forms military alliances with any other country or organisation? Other countries can why not Ukraine. Russia has formed one with China. Oh I know there is no signed bit of paper but military groups join together in manoeuvres so they can better integrate and form a unified force as I have been told on here.

Ukraine can't self determine alliances with anyone, there's no such thing as a unilateral alliance. International alliances aren't random agreements, they are forged from post war protocols when the globe was divvied up after WW2 and later at the end of the cold war. Currently, Ukraine is further away from meeting the requirements to join NATO than it was under the so-called Putin puppet regime.

People are making a big thing about a Russian-China alliance, it's true they have finally resolved their territorial dispute but it remains a tenuous relationship. Listen to specialists on both countries and they'll explain their relationship is a fragile balance of self interest. What's bringing them together is the demand for gas as China tries to achieve its climate change goals. In the longer term China will need access to the Northern Sea route and some of China's previous naval exercises have been causing concern in Russia so joint exercise can be seen as a gesture of goodwill between the two rather than a joint defence against the West.

7) The other stuff you posted about the presence of American bases in other countries is a complex issue built up over 77 years. I don't think the Americans should have had bases in any Arab country but to quote Afghanistan is ridiculous because the American were attacking those who had attacked America. Russia was also in Afghanistan but to prop up a communist Afghan government, it wasn't in response to an attack or in self defence.

Ukraine and every other country's place in the world is a complex issue. It's a bit rich to pick and choose which complexities can be overlooked or over simplified.

8) The wider global conflict is a different issue. This is about Ukraine and the bully boy tactics of a Russian thug.

This about far more than Ukraine. If it were so simple, Ukraine could sign off the Minsk II agreement and try to get on with building a democracy when it might get back on track with aim of joining the EU.

 

[Salem-Hillbilly]

Putin's less than useful idiot.
Even Labrov has him on ignore.

 

[r@mside]

Just read “Putin’s People : How The KGB Took Back Russia And Then Took On The West” Catherine Belton . She used to be Moscow correspondent for Financial Times so she follows the money . According to her it was Tony Blair in late 90s that encouraged the Russian’s to bring vast amounts of to UK with no questions asked ,by early 2000 Londongrad was the capital new name .

Does she mention who vetted Putin and approved his position as Yeltsin's stand after the rigged election?

On the subject of UK money laundering and in no way condoning it, I'd love to know what our GDP would look like without it. It was happening long before Russian gangsters and ex-KGB officials got their grubby hands on state wealth.

 

[CEF]

The EU is not the issue it's NATO, they are different things.

Nato doesn't necessarily help, but began with EU interference really. Encouraging Ukraine to turn its back on Russia, despite their shared history and mix of Russians and Ukrainian citizens. Ended up in military coup, and Russia having to step in to rescue it's citizens.