• The first stage of the forum upgrades has now been completed but they remain in a degraded state and are still being worked on. Normal posting/reading should now be possible.
    Please read this thread for more details.
    New user registrations are currently disabled.

Test batting lineup going forward

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted member 21908
  • Start date Start date
smoker said:
Sibley for Hameed
Burns for Crawley
Foakes for Buttler
Parkinson for Leach

And a proper coach to coach them
Click to expand...
The first two are a no for me, due to their complex techniques.

Too many moving parts and when it goes wrong it’s almost impossible to correct.

They both need to look at their own games and get back to cricket basics - play straight and in the V
 

It's crazy how being out of the team raises your stock.

People calling for Crawley back when he was shite other than that 1 knock. Now he's come back in and been shite, people want Sibley and Burns back :lol:
 
dixonsafc said:
It's crazy how being out of the team raises your stock.

People calling for Crawley back when he was shite other than that 1 knock. Now he's come back in and been shite, people want Sibley and Burns back :lol:
Click to expand...
Don't be a smart arse.

They are the leading openers in county cricket and the only two from a very long conveyor belt of batsmen to show the mental fortitude to open the batting at test level. They've had technical flaws exposed but the purpose of the batting coach is to work with players on such things. I'd like to see what a proper batting coach, not Ant Botha and his batting on one leg tomfoolery, can get out of them, before wheeling out the next frightened 24 year old.
 
smoker said:
Don't be a smart arse.

They are the leading openers in county cricket and the only two from a very long conveyor belt of batsmen to show the mental fortitude to open the batting at test level. They've had technical flaws exposed but the purpose of the batting coach is to work with players on such things. I'd like to see what a proper batting coach, not Ant Botha and his batting on one leg tomfoolery, can get out of them, before wheeling out the next frightened 24 year old.
Click to expand...

Nothing 'smart arse' about it.

Sibley averaged 19.77 in 2021, he was in rotten form and rightly dropped. He's not a test match opener, he doesn't have enough scoring areas. Teams shut down the leg side and all he can do is block/get out.

Burns has done slightly better but also has got a duck in 6 of his 19 innings this year.

Madness to suggest they should come back in, especially Sibley.
 
dixonsafc said:
Nothing 'smart arse' about it.

Sibley averaged 19.77 in 2021, he was in rotten form and rightly dropped. He's not a test match opener, he doesn't have enough scoring areas. Teams shut down the leg side and all he can do is block/get out.

Burns has done slightly better but also has got a duck in 6 of his 19 innings this year.

Madness to suggest they should come back in, especially Sibley.
Click to expand...
Yes it is smartarse, you're trying to misrepresent my opinion as some sort of amnesiac nostalgia to belittle it.

Both players have shown mental fortitude to open at this level, unlike Hameed, Crawley, Jennings etc who were like rabbits in the headlights. They went to shit when teams started exploiting specific technical weaknesses, but this is where your elite coaches should be earning their corn.

All Sibley needed was a single offside boundary shot and to roll over his wrists earlier on the pull shot. Burns simply needed to reign in his trigger movement or open up his stance a bit to stop getting so closed off. How did Thorpe never manage to address this in two years? Bairstow is another example of a player who belongs at this level being left high and dry by the coaches. How did Ramprakash et al fail to correct an exploitable weakness to angled deliveries on the stumps in six years since having it identified by Australia?

The idea that you can't work with unorthodox techniques is cop out bilge, e.g. Graeme Smith, Steve Smith, Shiv Chanderpaul. Did Australia just give up on Steve Smith in 2011 when Anderson and Tremlett had him 'found out' outside the off stump?
 
smoker said:
Yes it is smartarse, you're trying to misrepresent my opinion as some sort of amnesiac nostalgia to belittle it.

Both players have shown mental fortitude to open at this level, unlike Hameed, Crawley, Jennings etc who were like rabbits in the headlights. They went to shit when teams started exploiting specific technical weaknesses, but this is where your elite coaches should be earning their corn.

All Sibley needed was a single offside boundary shot and to roll over his wrists earlier on the pull shot. Burns simply needed to reign in his trigger movement or open up his stance a bit to stop getting so closed off. How did Thorpe never manage to address this in two years? Bairstow is another example of a player who belongs at this level being left high and dry by the coaches. How did Ramprakash et al fail to correct an exploitable weakness to angled deliveries on the stumps in six years since having it identified by Australia?

The idea that you can't work with unorthodox techniques is cop out bilge, e.g. Graeme Smith, Steve Smith, Shiv Chanderpaul. Did Australia just give up on Steve Smith in 2011 when Anderson and Tremlett had him 'found out' outside the off stump?
Click to expand...
I disagree with you on Sibley personally. I just don’t see he has that offside game. He gets bogged down without a release and thus he will always struggle to score runs unless he is in prime form and everything goes his way
 
chunkylover53 said:
I disagree with you on Sibley personally. I just don’t see he has that offside game. He gets bogged down without a release and thus he will always struggle to score runs unless he is in prime form and everything goes his way
Click to expand...
This has become a bit of a truism. Sibley scores a lot of runs on the offside:
You must be logged on to see media items

The trouble is most of these shots are singles to the covers. He's lacking the big shot on that side. Cook wasn't strong on the offside either but he had a decent cut shot, just wheel the fucker out of retirement to teach it to Sibley.

Or we can simply go on trying to teach scared young kids with pretty techniques how to be resilient enough to bat for three sessions.
 
dixonsafc said:
Nothing 'smart arse' about it.

Sibley averaged 19.77 in 2021, he was in rotten form and rightly dropped. He's not a test match opener, he doesn't have enough scoring areas. Teams shut down the leg side and all he can do is block/get out.

Burns has done slightly better but also has got a duck in 6 of his 19 innings this year.

Madness to suggest they should come back in, especially Sibley.
Click to expand...
Sibley averaged 47 in 2020 tbf to him, India tour did a lot of damage to him and others
 
smoker said:
Yes it is smartarse, you're trying to misrepresent my opinion as some sort of amnesiac nostalgia to belittle it.

Both players have shown mental fortitude to open at this level, unlike Hameed, Crawley, Jennings etc who were like rabbits in the headlights. They went to shit when teams started exploiting specific technical weaknesses, but this is where your elite coaches should be earning their corn.

All Sibley needed was a single offside boundary shot and to roll over his wrists earlier on the pull shot. Burns simply needed to reign in his trigger movement or open up his stance a bit to stop getting so closed off. How did Thorpe never manage to address this in two years? Bairstow is another example of a player who belongs at this level being left high and dry by the coaches. How did Ramprakash et al fail to correct an exploitable weakness to angled deliveries on the stumps in six years since having it identified by Australia?

The idea that you can't work with unorthodox techniques is cop out bilge, e.g. Graeme Smith, Steve Smith, Shiv Chanderpaul. Did Australia just give up on Steve Smith in 2011 when Anderson and Tremlett had him 'found out' outside the off stump?
Click to expand...

If you want to get your knickers in a twist over a comment that didn't address you directly, then that's on you.

I don't see a world where Dom Sibley makes it as a test match opener. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see him finishing his career on an average any better than 31-32, which isn't good enough for test match cricket.

Teams worked out how to squeeze him scoring this year, and unless he makes a significant adjustment to how he plays then I can't see that changing. He's so pragmatic in how he plays I think it'll be harder for him to make those adjustments.
 
smoker said:
The idea that you can't work with unorthodox techniques is cop out bilge, e.g. Graeme Smith, Steve Smith, Shiv Chanderpaul. Did Australia just give up on Steve Smith in 2011 when Anderson and Tremlett had him 'found out' outside the off stump?
Click to expand...
He was 21, had played 5 matches and was in the team as a leg spinner and yes, they dropped him for 2 years. And despite being in the team as a bowler and batting well down the order he still averaged 28.8, which is almost identical to Sibley's 22 match career as a top order batsman.

Strange comparison that mind, Smith's renaissance as a batsman bears no resemblance at all to Dom Sibley's career.
 
smoker said:
Yes it is smartarse, you're trying to misrepresent my opinion as some sort of amnesiac nostalgia to belittle it.

Both players have shown mental fortitude to open at this level, unlike Hameed, Crawley, Jennings etc who were like rabbits in the headlights. They went to shit when teams started exploiting specific technical weaknesses, but this is where your elite coaches should be earning their corn.

All Sibley needed was a single offside boundary shot and to roll over his wrists earlier on the pull shot. Burns simply needed to reign in his trigger movement or open up his stance a bit to stop getting so closed off. How did Thorpe never manage to address this in two years? Bairstow is another example of a player who belongs at this level being left high and dry by the coaches. How did Ramprakash et al fail to correct an exploitable weakness to angled deliveries on the stumps in six years since having it identified by Australia?

The idea that you can't work with unorthodox techniques is cop out bilge, e.g. Graeme Smith, Steve Smith, Shiv Chanderpaul. Did Australia just give up on Steve Smith in 2011 when Anderson and Tremlett had him 'found out' outside the off stump?
Click to expand...
I don't want to be labelled a smart arse, but I don't think it's as simple as you portray.

If it was, then some one other than you (maybe a competant club cricketer) would have solved it by now.

What I'd be intersted to know was how much time the England batting coaches spend on correcting technique and how much time they spend on the mental side of the game. Tbh, if a player hasn't got the correct technique, they shouldn't be anywhere near the Test side and I think it's only due to the lack of options that Burns and Sibley are there.

In years gone by there were loads of competant county players who would never be considered for a Test side because selectors knew they didn't have the ability and would be found out. Nowadays the cupboard is bare.

Players like Strauss, Vaughan and Trescothick (even as far back as David's Steele and Gower) weren't the most prolific of county batsmen but had the X factor to succeed. They had the technique and were able to raise their game once the England coaches identified them.

Sibley, Burns and most of the rest just don't
 
Last edited:
Eggman said:
I don't want to be labelled a smart arse, but I don't think it's as simple as you portray.

If it was, then some one other than you (maybe a competant club cricketer) would have solved it by now.

What I'd be intersted to know was how much time the England batting coaches spend on correcting technique and how much time they spend on the mental side of the game. Tbh, if a player hasn't got the correct technique, they shouldn't be anywhere near the Test side and I think it's only due to the lack of options that Burns and Sibley are there.

In years gone by there were loads of competant county players who would never be considered for a Test side because selectors knew they didn't have the ability and would be found out. Nowadays the cupboard is bare.

Players like Strauss, Vaughan and Trescothick (even as far back as David's Steele and Gower) weren't the most prolific of county batsmen but had the X factor to succeed. They had the technique and were able to raise their game once the England coaches identified them.

Sibley, Burns and most of the rest just don't
Click to expand...
By X factor I presume you mean a combination of mental resilience and batting technique. Other than Root, and to a lesser extent Stokes, we don't have players with both so it's a question of which one you prioritise. As a manager I would always appoint for attitude and train for skill: time after time, I've seen it proven to be the better approach.

With regards why our coaches haven't sorted out Sibley and Burns's batting, maybe you're crediting them with too much initiative? Moeen Ali doesn't think too highly of them:
You must be logged on to see external links
Jack Torrance said:
Sibley averaged 47 in 2020 tbf to him, India tour did a lot of damage to him and others
Click to expand...
India worked out that if you put the ball just above waist height on off stump 9 times out of 10 he will pull it through midwicket in the air. I can't believe our elite coaches haven't been able to work with him to rectify this.

Test cricket is an arms race between the opposition analysts and bowling coach and your batting coach. There's no batsman in the world who will walk into a Test team as the finished article. None of our batsmen ever seem to improve while they're on central contracts.
 
Last edited:
smoker said:
By X factor I presume you mean a combination of mental resilience and batting technique. Other than Root, and to a lesser extent Stokes, we don't have players with both so it's a question of which one you prioritise. As a manager I would always appoint for attitude and train for skill: time after time, I've seen it proven to be the better approach.

With regards why our coaches haven't sorted out Sibley and Burns's batting, maybe you're crediting them with too much initiative? Moeen Ali doesn't think too highly of them:
You must be logged on to see external links

India worked out that if you put the ball just above waist height on off stump 9 times out of 10 he will pull it through midwicket in the air. I can't believe our elite coaches haven't been able to work with him to rectify this.

Test cricket is an arms race between the opposition analysts and bowling coach and your batting coach. There's no batsman in the world who will walk into a Test team as the finished article. None of our batsmen ever seem to improve while they're on central contracts.
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier - what do the coaches do ? I'm sure they only work on the mental prep, giving half volley throw downs to help get the eye in.

You can't reinvent your batting technique in the international arena. Years ago, Dennis Amiss figured out a way of combatting the W Indies quicks, by developing an amended technique in the CC. He got recalled and scored 203.

Recently, we had Joe Denly playing a few years ago and after a lot of struggles he was finally getting his game together, but all of a sudden they dropped him in favour of the likes of Crawley and Pope. At least with Denly you had someone prepared to guts it out rather than chase a wide ball because his strike rate is dropping.

I reckon you can tell more about a batsman because of the balls he doesn't play at rather than the shots they play.

Let the bowler come to you !
 
Last edited:
Got to be honest I agree with @smoker here. In the absence of stand out talent which we clearly don't have then you have to pick your best 2 options and work with what you have to improve them. Sibley & Burns probably represent that. They may never amount to anything with better coaching but it's better than keep hanging loads of others out to dry for no practical gains. Just pick 2, stick with them as they learn and put everything you have into improving them.
 
The Rat said:
Aye probs agree there.

Seen a lot of Lees, I like him, but not convinced at a higher level, but he is obviously in their thinking.

When does Bedingham qualify?

He is the one player I've seen over last few years who I thought looked a class above.
Click to expand...

Really poor if Bedingham/ Harmer play over proper English lads (just as it was when Jennings played). IMO.

I thought ‘be careful what you wish for’ when Denly was dropped. His slow 30s protected the middle order… albeit Root has still been superhuman since.
 
NorthCountryBoy said:
Really poor if Bedingham/ Harmer play over proper English lads (just as it was when Jennings played). IMO.

I thought ‘be careful what you wish for’ when Denly was dropped. His slow 30s protected the middle order… albeit Root has still been superhuman since.
Click to expand...

Jennings has a British passport and family still living in Sunderland like

What makes him not eligible?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top