England v India (Third Test) Headingley

[The Rat]

Vaughan beat arguably the greatest Australian team of all time. Joe Root hasn't won an Ashes series as captain.

In terms of 'weakened teams' Vaughan whitewashed Brian Lara's West Indies side home and away, a team that was a lot better than the current WI team.

Joe makes too many strategic errors to be considered a great captain. Could you imagine Vaughan presiding over those day five tactics at Lords?

BTW, test matches now are far more likely to produce a result than in the past. While having the highest number of wins, Joe also has the second highest number of defeats.

The thing is, there is still a lot of "better in my day" stuff there.

There is no way you can tell me that 2005 attack we ended up facing is better than Cummins, Haze, Lyon and Starc/Pattinson....it just isn;t

4 of the tests there was basically no McGrath, Gillespie barely played again and Kasp was finished too

Lee did OK in patches but was very hit and miss, they were carried by Warne

Thats 1 example of people looking back with rose tinted glasses.

My main point anyway wasn't that Root was better captain than Vaughan, just that he isn't bad like people say he is

the fact we won have won so many games under him considwring the state of our batting lineup is remarkable. Would Vaughan have won more with Root's team? Not in my opinion.

 

[smoker]

The thing is, there is still a lot of "better in my day" stuff there.

There is no way you can tell me that 2005 attack we ended up facing is better than Cummins, Haze, Lyon and Starc/Pattinson....it just isn;t

4 of the tests there was basically no McGrath, Gillespie barely played again and Kasp was finished too

Lee did OK in patches but was very hit and miss, they were carried by Warne

Thats 1 example of people looking back with rose tinted glasses.

My main point anyway wasn't that Root was better captain than Vaughan, just that he isn't bad like people say he is

the fact we won have won so many games under him considwring the state of our batting lineup is remarkable. Would Vaughan have won more with Root's team? Not in my opinion.

Iirc McGrath played three tests in 2005.

Starc only played one game in 2019, and he was shite. Pattinson and Lyon were pretty mediocre in that series as well, not to mention the usually much vaunted in English conditions Peter Siddle. Pattinson didn't play at all in 17/18 iirc.

If you compare win % rather than gross number of wins, Root would be behind Vaughan, not to mention the likes of Brierley, Jardine, Cowdrey etc.

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

Iirc McGrath played three tests in 2005.

Starc only played one game in 2019, and he was shite. Pattinson and Lyon were pretty mediocre in that series as well, not to mention the usually much vaunted in English conditions Peter Siddle. Pattinson didn't play at all in 17/18 iirc.

If you compare win % rather than gross number of wins, Root would be behind Vaughan, not to mention the likes of Brierley, Jardine, Cowdrey etc.

Absolute madness to say the 2019 attack was as good as the 2005 one. It wasn't.

It's true that Cummings and Hazelwood would probably get in a combined attack, alongside McGrath and Warne. But who were they backed up by? Nowhere near the quality that the 2005 side had. Also: Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath!!! Quite possibly the greatest seamer and (no, definitely) the greatest spinner to have ever picked up a ball!

The 2005 Aussies were the greatest team in the history of contemporary cricket. Ok, they were not at their peak and on the downward slope somewhat, but that's what they were.

 

[Jack Torrance]

Absolute madness to say the 2019 attack was as good as the 2005 one. It wasn't.

It's true that Cummings and Hazelwood would probably get in a combined attack, alongside McGrath and Warne. But who were they backed up by? Nowhere near the quality that the 2005 side had. Also: Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath!!! Quite possibly the greatest seamer and (no, definitely) the greatest spinner to have ever picked up a ball!

The 2005 Aussies were the greatest team in the history of contemporary cricket. Ok, they were not at their peak and on the downward slope somewhat, but that's what they were.

Tbf after Warne and McGrath their attack was poor that series. Lee was the best of the rest and averaged 40 with the ball, Gillespie ended up being dropped. Obviously McGrath and Warne can win games on their own and it was a brilliant team

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

Tbf after Warne and McGrath their attack was poor that series. Lee was the best of the rest and averaged 40 with the ball, Gillespie ended up being dropped. Obviously McGrath and Warne can win games on their own and it was a brilliant team

Aye, but you have to give England some credit there, don't you (as you do for 2019 with Starc, Siddle and Lyon, who were also poor).

The point is surely a) you won't find any Australians saying Hazelwood and Cummings are as good as McGrath or Warne. And b) you won't find many who say Starc, Siddle and Pattison are better than Gillespie, Kasprowicz and Lee.

There's more quality in 2005.

 

[scotch]

Aye, but you have to give England some credit there, don't you (as you do for 2019 with Starc, Siddle and Lyon, who were also poor).

The point is surely a) you won't find any Australians saying Hazelwood and Cummings are as good as McGrath or Warne. And b) you won't find many who say Starc, Siddle and Pattison are better than Gillespie, Kasprowicz and Lee.

There's more quality in 2005.

Warne, Mcgrath, Cummings, Hazlewood, Johnson/Lee/Starc/Harris
Swan, Anderson, Broad, Flintoff, Wood, Stokes
Stokes in as our all rounder - still would fancy the Aussie attack I feel anyone make a better one for either since 2005

 

[Voice of fair play]

Absolute madness to say the 2019 attack was as good as the 2005 one. It wasn't.

It's true that Cummings and Hazelwood would probably get in a combined attack, alongside McGrath and Warne. But who were they backed up by? Nowhere near the quality that the 2005 side had. Also: Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath!!! Quite possibly the greatest seamer and (no, definitely) the greatest spinner to have ever picked up a ball!

The 2005 Aussies were the greatest team in the history of contemporary cricket. Ok, they were not at their peak and on the downward slope somewhat, but that's what they were.

On paper overall the 2005 and over periods of time was better imo quite a bit better and think you right, however if you look at the particular series we talKing about think 2019 was probably overall better as all on form in that series.

@The Rat is correct, Warne was simply immense in that series, where as the pivotal moment in that series was McGrath getting injured before the second test, he did come back I think for the last 2 tests but was far from fully fit and was brought back as they desperately needed him, Gillespie was finished by then and was terrible in that particular series after previously been a great bowler, meaning after the first test the only bowlers they had in form in that series was Warne and Lee.

Where as in 2019, all the Aussie bowlers were on form and bowling brilliantly.

 

[rentaghost]

On paper overall the 2005 and over periods of time was better imo quite a bit better and think you right, however if you look at the particular series we talKing about think 2019 was probably overall better as all on form in that series.

@The Rat is correct, Warne was simply immense in that series, where as the pivotal moment in that series was McGrath getting injured before the second test, he did come back I think for the last 2 tests but was far from fully fit and was brought back as they desperately needed him, Gillespie was finished by then and was terrible in that particular series after previously been a great bowler, meaning after the first test the only bowlers they had in form in that series was Warne and Lee.

Where as in 2019, all the Aussie bowlers were on form and bowling brilliantly.

I agree with that. Of course a full strength fully firing McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Warne it is one of the all time great attacks but as mentioned it wasn’t the same McGrath after the first test, Gillespie was weak, Kasprowicz was moderate and Lee was rapid but not as effective when McGrath isn’t fit and firing.

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

On paper overall the 2005 and over periods of time was better imo quite a bit better and think you right, however if you look at the particular series we talKing about think 2019 was probably overall better as all on form in that series.

@The Rat is correct, Warne was simply immense in that series, where as the pivotal moment in that series was McGrath getting injured before the second test, he did come back I think for the last 2 tests but was far from fully fit and was brought back as they desperately needed him, Gillespie was finished by then and was terrible in that particular series after previously been a great bowler, meaning after the first test the only bowlers they had in form in that series was Warne and Lee.

Where as in 2019, all the Aussie bowlers were on form and bowling brilliantly.

I disagree. Not so much on what you say re: 2005, more on 2019. The rest of the Aussie attack in 2019, other than Hazelwood and Cummings, was directly comparable to the 2005 attack other than Warne and McGrath: they were decent-ish bowlers, not really threatening that much in that particular series. I don't think they were bowling brilliantly at all. Hazelwood and Cummings were.

McGrath played 1st, 3rd, 5th tests. Probably shouldn't have played 3rd, but was MoM in 1st and there best seamer in the 5th. He also saved the game with the bat iirc in the 3rd, blocking us out for a couple of overs and getting the draw.

 

[The Rat]

Absolute madness to say the 2019 attack was as good as the 2005 one. It wasn't.

It's true that Cummings and Hazelwood would probably get in a combined attack, alongside McGrath and Warne. But who were they backed up by? Nowhere near the quality that the 2005 side had. Also: Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath!!! Quite possibly the greatest seamer and (no, definitely) the greatest spinner to have ever picked up a ball!

The 2005 Aussies were the greatest team in the history of contemporary cricket. Ok, they were not at their peak and on the downward slope somewhat, but that's what they were.

it’s not true. You’ve misremembered completely

McGrath didn’t play

Gillespie n kasp were finished

you’re looking back with rose tinted glasses

I disagree. Not so much on what you say re: 2005, more on 2019. The rest of the Aussie attack in 2019, other than Hazelwood and Cummings, was directly comparable to the 2005 attack other than Warne and McGrath: they were decent-ish bowlers, not really threatening that much in that particular series. I don't think they were bowling brilliantly at all. Hazelwood and Cummings were.

McGrath played 1st, 3rd, 5th tests. Probably shouldn't have played 3rd, but was MoM in 1st and there best seamer in the 5th. He also saved the game with the bat iirc in the 3rd, blocking us out for a couple of overs and getting the draw.

there’s no appreciation by many of how good Cummins and haze are

it’s a good example how people just think players were better in their day.

I agree with that. Of course a full strength fully firing McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Warne it is one of the all time great attacks but as mentioned it wasn’t the same McGrath after the first test, Gillespie was weak, Kasprowicz was moderate and Lee was rapid but not as effective when McGrath isn’t fit and firing.

aye exactly

people are thinking of the ashes before. The batting was quality obviously but their bowling wasn’t

Aye, but you have to give England some credit there, don't you (as you do for 2019 with Starc, Siddle and Lyon, who were also poor).

The point is surely a) you won't find any Australians saying Hazelwood and Cummings are as good as McGrath or Warne. And b) you won't find many who say Starc, Siddle and Pattison are better than Gillespie, Kasprowicz and Lee.

There's more quality in 2005.

totally incorrect

Iirc McGrath played three tests in 2005.

Starc only played one game in 2019, and he was shite. Pattinson and Lyon were pretty mediocre in that series as well, not to mention the usually much vaunted in English conditions Peter Siddle. Pattinson didn't play at all in 17/18 iirc.

If you compare win % rather than gross number of wins, Root would be behind Vaughan, not to mention the likes of Brierley, Jardine, Cowdrey etc.

the attack in 2019 was better than 2005. I think you forget how poor Gillespie and kasp were

mcgrath stood on a cricket ball, it’s unfortunate but it happened

 

[smoker]

it’s not true. You’ve misremembered completely

McGrath didn’t play

Gillespie n kasp were finished

you’re looking back with rose tinted glasses


there’s no appreciation by many of how good Cummins and haze are

it’s a good example how people just think players were better in their day.


aye exactly

people are thinking of the ashes before. The batting was quality obviously but their bowling wasn’t


totally incorrect


the attack in 2019 was better than 2005. I think you forget how poor Gillespie and kasp were

mcgrath stood on a cricket ball, it’s unfortunate but it happened

Can't believe you're still arguing the toss on this one. Nobody in their right mind would argue the modern Australian attack, good though it is, is on a par with legends like Warne and McGrath. Maybe on a par with their second tier bowlers like Lee and Tait who we put to the sword.

We haven't even gone into their batting, which was like a team of Smith or Labuschagnes. As a team they were unbeaten in sixteen series and we hadn't beaten them in 18 years. Vaughan overturned that, instilled belief in a team that got whitewashed without him. Joe's Ashes records involve being tonked four nowt then a 2-2 home draw we would have lost but for a superhuman innings by Ben Stokes.

Vaughan is generally accepted as one of crickets great leaders and tacticians, his body language exuded it. As a manager I hear textbook situational leadership, how he managed player x or y, when he speaks about that team and the series. With Joe it's always 'we maybe thought....', the lad solicits the opinion of every senior player, he never looks truly 'in charge'. That Stokes Headingley win, off the back of the world cup, was a gift horse for a captain looking to inspire belief in his men and we went and lost the next match.

So no, Joe hasn't done a bad job, and I'd rate him above Cook and anyone between Brierley and Hussain, but best ever England captain nah mate.

 

[rentaghost]

Can't believe you're still arguing the toss on this one. Nobody in their right mind would argue the modern Australian attack, good though it is, is on a par with legends like Warne and McGrath. Maybe on a par with their second tier bowlers like Lee and Tait who we put to the sword.

We haven't even gone into their batting, which was like a team of Smith or Labuschagnes. As a team they were unbeaten in sixteen series and we hadn't beaten them in 18 years. Vaughan overturned that, instilled belief in a team that got whitewashed without him. Joe's Ashes records involve being tonked four nowt then a 2-2 home draw we would have lost but for a superhuman innings by Ben Stokes.

Vaughan is generally accepted as one of crickets great leaders and tacticians, his body language exuded it. As a manager I hear textbook situational leadership, how he managed player x or y, when he speaks about that team and the series. With Joe it's always 'we maybe thought....', the lad solicits the opinion of every senior player, he never looks truly 'in charge'. That Stokes Headingley win, off the back of the world cup, was a gift horse for a captain looking to inspire belief in his men and we went and lost the next match.

So no, Joe hasn't done a bad job, and I'd rate him above Cook and anyone between Brierley and Hussain, but best ever England captain nah mate.

McGrath was only fit for one test man. Then you are left with a past it Gillespie and a moderate Kasp and a speed merchant with an average record. That’s his point and a valid one.

 

[The Rat]

Can't believe you're still arguing the toss on this one. Nobody in their right mind would argue the modern Australian attack, good though it is, is on a par with legends like Warne and McGrath. Maybe on a par with their second tier bowlers like Lee and Tait who we put to the sword.

We haven't even gone into their batting, which was like a team of Smith or Labuschagnes. As a team they were unbeaten in sixteen series and we hadn't beaten them in 18 years. Vaughan overturned that, instilled belief in a team that got whitewashed without him. Joe's Ashes records involve being tonked four nowt then a 2-2 home draw we would have lost but for a superhuman innings by Ben Stokes.

Vaughan is generally accepted as one of crickets great leaders and tacticians, his body language exuded it. As a manager I hear textbook situational leadership, how he managed player x or y, when he speaks about that team and the series. With Joe it's always 'we maybe thought....', the lad solicits the opinion of every senior player, he never looks truly 'in charge'. That Stokes Headingley win, off the back of the world cup, was a gift horse for a captain looking to inspire belief in his men and we went and lost the next match.

So no, Joe hasn't done a bad job, and I'd rate him above Cook and anyone between Brierley and Hussain, but best ever England captain nah mate.

haha what are you talking about?

mcgrath was fit for 1 test

did you actually watch the series?

also when did Vaughan’s players miss test matches for one day series and IPL

when did his players rest for whole summers?

if you seriously think Gillespie in 2005 and kasp were better than Cummins n haze then let’s end this conversation here

as you are just lying

McGrath was only fit for one test man. Then you are left with a past it Gillespie and a moderate Kasp and a speed merchant with an average record. That’s his point and a valid one.

people just hear the words 2005 and then can’t look past the nostalgia
Also I never said he was a better captain than Vaughan like

but read the thread from last week it was mad.

there’s never been a harder time to be England captain than right now. He never gets his best side and his players nevrr play red ball cricket

Vaughan captained at the best possible time, no white ball priority, no IPL

 

[Voice of fair play]

Can't believe you're still arguing the toss on this one. Nobody in their right mind would argue the modern Australian attack, good though it is, is on a par with legends like Warne and McGrath. Maybe on a par with their second tier bowlers like Lee and Tait who we put to the sword.

We haven't even gone into their batting, which was like a team of Smith or Labuschagnes. As a team they were unbeaten in sixteen series and we hadn't beaten them in 18 years. Vaughan overturned that, instilled belief in a team that got whitewashed without him. Joe's Ashes records involve being tonked four nowt then a 2-2 home draw we would have lost but for a superhuman innings by Ben Stokes.

Vaughan is generally accepted as one of crickets great leaders and tacticians, his body language exuded it. As a manager I hear textbook situational leadership, how he managed player x or y, when he speaks about that team and the series. With Joe it's always 'we maybe thought....', the lad solicits the opinion of every senior player, he never looks truly 'in charge'. That Stokes Headingley win, off the back of the world cup, was a gift horse for a captain looking to inspire belief in his men and we went and lost the next match.

So no, Joe hasn't done a bad job, and I'd rate him above Cook and anyone between Brierley and Hussain, but best ever England captain nah mate.

Nobody is arguing that mate you dead right McGrath and Warne streets ahead over a period of time, what is getting compared is two respective series 2005 and 2019 in isolation.

In 2005 McGrath was brilliant in the first test and either missed the rest through injury and when did play was no where near fully fit.

Therefore a fully fit and firing McGrath was only available for 1 match in that series, Warne carried that attack in the series.

That’s the point that people are debating not overall ability of the two attacks

 

[smoker]

Nobody is arguing that mate you dead right McGrath and Warne streets ahead over a period of time, what is getting compared is two respective series 2005 and 2019 in isolation.

In 2005 McGrath was brilliant in the first test and either missed the rest through injury and when did play was no where near fully fit.

Therefore a fully fit and firing McGrath was only available for 1 match in that series, Warne carried that attack in the series.

That’s the point that people are debating not overall ability of the two attacks

Another one with amnesia. McGrath played three test matches in that series: first, third and fifth tests, 19 wickets at 23.15.

 

[rentaghost]

Another one with amnesia. McGrath played three test matches in that series: first, third and fifth tests, 19 wickets at 23.15.

We know he played 3 tests. He missed two completely and averaged 35 plus in his last 2 when he wasn’t really fit.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Another one with amnesia. McGrath played three test matches in that series: first, third and fifth tests, 19 wickets at 23.15.

That what I said he played the first test when fully fit and two he was injured other two played when not fit so was only fully firing in one!

 

[rentaghost]

We know he played 3 tests. He missed two completely and averaged 35 plus in his last 2 when he wasn’t really fit.

I think we can all agree for one test only at Lords they had the best attack with 2 of the greatest bowlers of all time and they beat us easily. However for 4 tests with a half fit or no McGrath and a very average Dizzy and or Kasorowicz England weren’t playing against the fantastic attack it could have been.

 

[smoker]

We know he played 3 tests. He missed two completely and averaged 35 plus in his last 2 when he wasn’t really fit.

McGrath took ten wickets in those two matches and bowled 100+ overs. Not bad for an unfit player.

By the same logic, their 2019 attack was shite because Starc only played one match and Siddle is 'finished'.

A pointless contextomy argument. Man for man the Australia 2005 side was the best test team in the world at that time and had been for many years. If we'd gone on to win in India last winter or beat that NZ side at home, I'd rank them as equivalent achievements.

What's your opinion on the OP's opinion that Root is the best England captain ever?

 

[Voice of fair play]

McGrath took ten wickets in those two matches and bowled 100+ overs. Not bad for an unfit player.

By the same logic, their 2019 attack was shite because Starc only played one match and Siddle is 'finished'.

A pointless contextomy argument. Man for man the Australia 2005 side was the best test team in the world at that time and had been for many years. If we'd gone on to win in India last winter or beat that NZ side at home, I'd rank them as equivalent achievements.

What's your opinion on the OP's opinion that Root is the best England captain ever?

I think man for man around that era Australia were not only the best team in the world at the time by a country mile, that era maybe a year or two before that series that Australia team was the best test team ever!