Sweden

[hairynaker]

Zero deaths is great news. One key difference, at least from the outside looking in, is that the good folk of Sweden seem to be able to take direction from their government.

Whilst there is a good level of trust over there, we have people shoving lit flares up their arse and people thinking the government are out to get them.

Totally different mindset over here, we have a huge percentage of the population that cannot be trusted.

 

[Hansel]

They are currently in a dip the same as we were in May/June. Pandemics have waves - who knew? You cannot say their approach has been successful just from current daily deaths and cases as this may well increase again as the Delta variant takes hold. This will be mitigated by where they are in their vaccination program. We are being told lift restrictions now because we want a peak to occur before the autumn and kids are back in school. Perhaps by having their dip now they are setting themselves up for a delta peak exactly when we are saying it's a bad time to happen. It short it's far too early to call this one. Delta changes everything as we have found out.

 

[Frijj]

No.

@squavers and @Sunderlandafc2020 have barely posted recently and all of a sudden they’re back and obsessed with masks and sweden

wonder which banned posters they are

Sweden had the same issue we had with care homes. Take those numbers out and it's a different story

We'll never lockdown again because it's a terrible way to deal with a pandemic

The lockdown zealots, the condemners, will be all over you for that

You cannot question lockdowns

Got a link for that then?

 

[squavers]

@squavers and @Sunderlandafc2020 have barely posted recently and all of a sudden they’re back and obsessed with masks and sweden

wonder which banned posters they are

You're sounding a little bit paranoid there mate - rattled even.

Compare Sweden to its neighbours and see how badly it failed, or hang on the word of a right wing libertarian think tank whilst deluding yourself that you know what you’re talking about

I've just compared Sweden to its neighbour Germany and it seems to be doing quite well in comparison.

 

[Ciro_DiMarzio]

You're sounding a little bit paranoid there mate - rattled even.




I've just compared Sweden to its neighbour Germany and it seems to be doing quite well in comparison.

Try Norway and Finland. The countries it has land borders with.

 

[squavers]

Try Norway and Finland. The countries it has land borders with.

Oh right, I didn't realise the definition of a neighbouring country is that it has to have a land border

 

[Gelan]

Norway and Finland, like Oz and NZ have been buildng up a stock of elderley and sick in some vain hope that all will survive when they open up.

Once again: Restrctions extend the lives of those that (1) would normally succumb to any virus (2) Would not be saved by a vaccine (low protien synthesis)

Come back to me next summer and tell me I was wrong.

Nb: Sweden stayed open without a vaccine. From third worse deaths to 38th.

 

[Frijj]

You're sounding a little bit paranoid there mate - rattled even.




I've just compared Sweden to its neighbour Germany and it seems to be doing quite well in comparison.

Not at all. It’s quite clear that several posters on this board, especially those who have views broadly against lockdown, masks, vaccinations etc, are posting under other accounts when banned.

I think it’s reasonable to think you could be one of those posters, given that.

Sweden performed terribly compared to its closest neighbours.

 

[Deleted member 48353]

Not at all

I realise going against lockdowns is heresy now but there are thousands of scientists and economists who believe it was a terrible response to this virus

Closing schools was criminal

Our mistakes will become apparent and we will not lockdown again

I didn’t mention anything about lockdowns

 

[Rustie Trombone]

Got a link for that then?

Half of covid deaths in Sweden occurred in care homes. They fucked up with care homes not their approach to lockdown

Questioning the cost benefits of lockdowns isn't being a covid denier or an anti vaxxer - it's perfectly reasonable scepticism over a policy which has caused massive damage in many ways

I didn’t mention anything about lockdowns

I'm just expanding the conversation marra

 

[Frijj]

Half of covid deaths in Sweden occurred in care homes. They fucked up with care homes not their approach to lockdown

Questioning the cost benefits of lockdowns isn't being a covid denier or an anti vaxxer - it's perfectly reasonable scepticism over a policy which has caused massive damage in many ways


I'm just expanding the conversation marra

I am not dismissing you. I am asking for evidence

 

[Gelan]

I am not dismissing you. I am asking for evidence

Frijj, we honestly have to wait another year until we know the truth. Just take a look at the European countries that lost control. The majority of these countries are now out, but have death rates above 2,000 per million. Why, because those that had their lives extended were eventually going to be exposed to the virus. We may well see deaths around 100 per day in the UK until that same point is reached.

When everythng is known, our deaths may not look that bad considerng the health of our nation.

Apart from going it alone without a vaccine as a buffer, Sweden has also side stepped borrowing a kings ransom and accumulating an anormous health waiting list. Add to that the good mental health of it's people and you'd sound pretty dumb to say they got it wrong.

Their population density probably helped them and, even considering that, their numbers aren't as great as some try and persuade us they are.

80% live on 2% of the land, plus they do like apartment blocks...it's well crowded.

Oh right, I didn't realise the definition of a neighbouring country is that it has to have a land border

They're getting desperate mate

 

[Rustie Trombone]

I am not dismissing you. I am asking for evidence

I've told you half of their deaths due to covid occurred in care homes so it skews their numbers over adjoining countries

Don't worry- the evidence for the cost/benefits of lockdowns will be with us soon and I'm confident we'll never lockdown again for a virus which is only fatal for specific cohorts of the population

There's a group of people - some on here - who are confident that lockdowns are the only way to deal with a pandemic. I think they're wrong

We were told that it would save the NHS - it hasn't because we have a waiting list of missed appointments, scans, cancer diagnoses and treatments which with the current capacity cannot be fulfilled in time to save lives - and an economy that's been trashed

Some estimate that we're 12 million appointments behind

Frijj, we honestly have to wait another year until we know the truth. Just take a look at the European countries that lost control. The majority of these countries are now out, but have death rates above 2,000 per million. Why, because those that had their lives extended were eventually going to be exposed to the virus. We may well see deaths around 100 per day in the UK until that same point is reached.

When everythng is known, our deaths may not look that bad considerng the health of our nation.

Apart from going it alone without a vaccine as a buffer, Sweden has also side stepped borrowing a kings ransom and accumulating an anormous health waiting list. Add to that the good mental health of it's people and you'd sound pretty dumb to say they got it wrong.

80% live on 2% of the land, plus they do like apartment blocks...it's well crowded.

They're getting desperate mate

I don't mind debate but they're determined to quash reasonable scepticism over a completely unproven policy - that's not close to scientific discourse

They act as if the evidence is overwhelming when it is not

 

[squavers]

squavers said:
Oh right, I didn't realise the definition of a neighbouring country is that it has to have a land border

They're getting desperate mate

I must admit that I'm a bit confused. When they say "compare Sweden with their neighbouring countries", do they mean all their neighbours are just the cherrypicked ones?

 

[Gaggoears]

Wonder what % of scratters they have compared to us ?

 

[Gelan]

I've told you half of their deaths due to covid occurred in care homes so it skews their numbers over adjoining countries

Don't worry- the evidence for the cost/benefits of lockdowns will be with us soon and I'm confident we'll never lockdown again for a virus which is only fatal for specific cohorts of the population

There's a group of people - some on here - who are confident that lockdowns are the only way to deal with a pandemic. I think they're wrong

We were told that it would save the NHS - it hasn't because we have a waiting list of missed appointments, scans, cancer diagnoses and treatments which with the current capacity cannot be fulfilled in time to save lives - and an economy that's been trashed

Some estimate that we're 12 million appointments behind


I don't mind debate but they're determined to quash reasonable scepticism over a completely unproven policy - that's not close to scientific discourse

They act as if the evidence is overwhelming when it is not

We've become used to certainty, as in, there's always someone who can fix it. Loosely held religious beliefs and belief in a Nirvana world have been trashed...and the result is fear, so why not pretend the scientist know everything.

From a kid I was always capable of switching off sentiment and thus seeing the wood for the trees. The truth is not scary...not knowing is terrifying.

They have my genuine sympathy, as I'm lucky enough to be too old and wise to have fear anymore.

Wonder what % of scratters they have compared to us ?

Woman on the radio a few days ago compared the UK with New Zealand. She honestly believed that if we had their leader we too would only have 25 deaths.

Maybe you believe that too.

 

[Gaggoears]

We've become used to certainty, as in, there's always someone who can fix it. Loosely held religious beliefs and belief in a Nirvana world have been trashed...and the result is fear, so why not pretend the scientist know everything.

From a kid I was always capable of switching off sentiment and thus seeing the wood for the trees. The truth is not scary...not knowing is terrifying.

They have my genuine sympathy, as I'm lucky enough to be too old and wise to have fear anymore.

Woman on the radio a few days ago compared the UK with New Zealand. She honestly believed that if we had their leader we too would only have 25 deaths.

Maybe you believe that too.

No. I just explained that above.

50% with an IQ of less than a hundred will always cause problems in a pandemic.

 

[Gelan]

No. I just explained that above.

50% with an IQ of less than a hundred will always cause problems in a pandemic.

I haven't caused any problems, so have no idea where you're going to with that one.

My IQ is 85 and I was officially diagnosed as retarded in 1958. I have never been a problem to anyone, but my partner with an IQ of around 150 has been a problem for most of her life. It took a thickie trouble maker like me to get her to a good place.

 

[Ledbury mackem]

I've told you half of their deaths due to covid occurred in care homes so it skews their numbers over adjoining countries

Don't worry- the evidence for the cost/benefits of lockdowns will be with us soon and I'm confident we'll never lockdown again for a virus which is only fatal for specific cohorts of the population

There's a group of people - some on here - who are confident that lockdowns are the only way to deal with a pandemic. I think they're wrong

We were told that it would save the NHS - it hasn't because we have a waiting list of missed appointments, scans, cancer diagnoses and treatments which with the current capacity cannot be fulfilled in time to save lives - and an economy that's been trashed

Some estimate that we're 12 million appointments behind


I don't mind debate but they're determined to quash reasonable scepticism over a completely unproven policy - that's not close to scientific discourse

They act as if the evidence is overwhelming when it is not

I have generally been in favour of the restrictions imposed although I am not dogmatic in that support. There are clearly some benefits and significant costs. What is needed is a grown up discussion about what has been successful and what has not.

I don't agree that the virus is only fatal to certain cohorts. It clearly affects certain parts of the population disproportionately but not exclusively.
The question that has to be addressed is how to protect those who are at risk without causing the massive disruption that has been caused to others. Simply asking them to shield risks significant mental health issues.

It is too simplistic to look at the effect the restrictions on the NHS in terms of whether it 'saved' it. They probably prevented the emergency care element from being overwhelmed during the first and second waves but has certainly had a potentially devastating impact on many other areas of treatment and care which will undoubtedly have cost lives.

I'm not convinced that the economy has been trashed as you suggest. Money has been found to pay for many elements of the support packages. This is government debt. How is it to be repaid? Modern Monetary Theory suggests there is no real reason why it needs to be unless the additional money in circulation causes inflation. At the moment the jury is out on that one, the Bank of England hasn't even resorted to raising interest rates yet.

We need to debate all of these issues and devise policies to address them. My fear is that the politicians aren't interested in doing any of this. They just want to pander to their supporters in order to cling on to power.

I wish I was more optimistic.

 

[bomber]

I must admit that I'm a bit confused. When they say "compare Sweden with their neighbouring countries", do they mean all their neighbours are just the cherrypicked ones?

Their death figures are terrible compared to norway,estonia,finland,lithuania,germany,latvia.