But if the gun had been moved from the kitchen to be then photographed on Sheila, then wouldn’t that detract from the prosecutions case that JM had staged the suicide?
Jeremy Bamber White House Farm...Innocent or Evil scumbag?
Nukehasslefan
Winger
Two bodies were seen. One male and the other, female. Can you explain that?
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
Possibly, but if the gun was found in the kitchen then Sheila's committing suicide is impossible as the second shot was fatal. The problem is that PC Davidson doesn't put a time on when he saw the rifle in the kitchen but states it was found in the kitchen. There is a possibility there were two rifles, one in the kitchen and one of Sheila but there is no confirmation of that. If two rifles were used then I think it has to go against the Sheila committed the murders hypothesis.
Yes the female in the kitchen was just pretending to be dead and after the police passed her she slipped out the back door and was never seen again. They should have put out an APB for finding her. Whoever this mystery woman was, she was a vital witness.
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Nukehasslefan
Winger
So you don't know and would rather answer like this.
Fair enough.
The officer stated there were two bodies in the kitchen. Both appeared dead. A male and a female.
You can't explain this, can you?
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
Then Jeremy's defence team should put that forward as part of their appeal and see how it gets on in Court.
Has JB has only ever claimed that Sheila was responsible? It has he claimed it could be a third party...
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
He discounted the possibility of a third party himself by claiming his father had phoned him and told him Sheila was going crazy and had the gun.
Nukehasslefan
Winger
Maybe they will.
It certainly should be presented.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
Sorry missed this.
Many people at times say that "all people are bad and should be killed", but I doubt if many go on to kill their parents and twin sons before committing suicide. It's a generic statement without any personal target.
On the other hand, there are several separate sources that state over a sustained period of time Jeremy said he hated his parents and wished them all dead, even going on to plan such an act that involved burning down the house which he mentioned to two people. Of course Jeremy says they are all telling lies but he would, wouldn't he? Yet his words have personal targets and express intent.
So on the one hand you have a generic statement by Sheila against a substantial amount of hatred against named persons that reveal intent.
Weighing the balance of evidence, I think the great big plank needs to be removed from Jeremy's eye before considering the speck of sawdust in Sheila's. Drawing attention to Sheila's remark just emphasises how personal and dangerous Jeremy's words were.
Roker Skate
Central Defender
I checked and she used the term 'evil' not bad. Given the statement of Freddie Emami and the religious situation between June and Sheila, I think the jury should have known Sheila had said these words. In order for that to have happened, the police should disclosed this to the defence.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
Well let's face it, we know a lot more about schizophrenia today than we did then although even then they knew the difference between someone not on medication and thus suffering a psychotic episode and someone taking their medication, the major tranquillisers, and under control. Great difference between the two states. Sheila's medication had been halved but on the night of the killings she was still described as vacant, apathetic and lethargic even by Jeremy. You cannot consider someone in that state to be suffering from their psychosis even if they are schizophrenic. It makes no sense and a paranoid schizophrenic experiencing a psychotic episode is more liable to a spontaneous outburst rather than a meticulous and methodical killing of four people. A schizophrenic is still capable of differentiating between their mother and their children. Her own psychiatrist said that he could understand some issue with her mother he could not imagine Sheila harming either her father or her sons.
On the other hand the killings look more like the work of a psychopath. Cold, calculated executions. Schizophrenics are not psychopaths. A schizophrenic is not capable of understanding the consequences of their action, whereas a psychopath is aware but doesn't care. You do not just snap out of a psychotic episode without medication being provided.
Jeremy claims not be a psychopath and states he has been assessed 27 times but refuses to make the results public.
It would be interesting to see the results of a brain scan and analysis of his DNA but of course he will never agree to that.
It's a neurologist that is needed to analyse Jeremy Bamber, not a psychologist.
BBC Four - The Mystery of Murder: A Horizon Guide
Michael Mosley looks at how scientists have probed the mind of the murderer.
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Roker Skate
Central Defender
Well let's face it, we know a lot more about schizophrenia today than we did then although even then they knew the difference between someone not on medication and thus suffering a psychotic episode and someone taking their medication, the major tranquillisers, and under control. Great difference between the two states. Sheila's medication had been halved but on the night of the killings she was still described as vacant, apathetic and lethargic even by Jeremy. You cannot consider someone in that state to be suffering from their psychosis even if they are schizophrenic. It makes no sense and a paranoid schizophrenic experiencing a psychotic episode is more liable to a spontaneous outburst rather than a meticulous and methodical killing of four people. A schizophrenic is still capable of differentiating between their mother and their children. Her own psychiatrist said that he could understand some issue with her mother he could not imagine Sheila harming either her father or her sons.
On the other hand the killings look more like the work of a psychopath. Cold, calculated executions. Schizophrenics are not psychopaths. A schizophrenic is not capable of understanding the consequences of their action, whereas a psychopath is aware but doesn't care. You do not just snap out of a psychotic episode without medication being provided.
Jeremy claims not be a psychopath and states he has been assessed 27 times but refuses to make the results public.
It would be interesting to see the results of a brain scan and analysis of his DNA but of course he will never agree to that.
It's a neurologist that is needed to analyse Jeremy Bamber, not a psychologist.
BBC Four - The Mystery of Murder: A Horizon Guide
Michael Mosley looks at how scientists have probed the mind of the murderer.www.bbc.co.uk
I was just thinking the other day, none of the testimony about Sheila being lethargic is actually related to the early hours. Bamber himself described her in terms of being vacant during the last family meal before the killings. Wouldn't it make sense for him to describe in more erratic, aggressive terms? If he is guilty, describing her in terms of being vacant implies that others would interpret this as the calm before the storm (which is the less obvious choice for him, if he is attempting to set her up). I only know of Prof Vincent Egan's test - not any of the other proclaimed tests. However, the authorities previously tried to downgrade his status to Cat B. Would that have happen if he had been diagnosed with psychopathy?
I have a theory shout what happened. I think Sheila killed her twins with the intention of joining them in the afterlife. They were shot while asleep on their beds which suggests to me they were killed first and the adults awoke when Sheila was moving through the house. If the commotion and shootings of the adults had happened first, I think the twins would have woken. I can't tell whether Sheila killed both adults because they attempted to intervene (either to save the twins or save Sheila from suicide) or whether Sheila deliberately shot June regardless, thereby triggering intervention from Nevill. Sheila may have saw the adults as trying to prevent her from joining her "babies" on the other side. We may never know - but if she had managed to kill herself before they intervened, then both adults would have survived. However, her poor relationship with June leaves open the possibility June was attacked regardless. Less so Nevill.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
If Sheila had not been under medication then a psychotic episode was possible but I would imagine it was likely a spontaneous outburst directed at her mother. However, she was under medication and Bamber describes her as vacant, apathetic and lethargic before he left the farm at 9:30pm. I cannot believe a psychotic episode occurred only a few hours later when she was on monthly injections. She was not taking the medication for side effects so she would have been even less coordinated than she was at the best of times which was poor.
Nevill was killed by four shots to the head. Two close together from the temple area which shot across his brain and two close together from the upper side of his head diagonally down through the brain. That is not a frenzied, psychotic killing from a poorly coordinated schizophrenic but a cold blooded execution from a psychopathic killer who knew exactly what they were doing.
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Still, he could put his money where his mouth is and undergo brain scan testing and DNA analysis but he never will, will he?
You cannot teach empathy to a psychopath. They simply learn to mimic empathy better and their psychopathy gets worse.
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It is also a feature of psychopathy that they sometimes blank out the memory of their crime and may genuinely believe they are innocent.
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Roker Skate
Central Defender
I don't have an issue with the shots to Nevill. His daughter suffered minor cuts and abrasions that where withheld from the jury. I think Bamber's defence did an appalling job mind. Although he was defended by Geoffrey Rivlin, it was Rivlin's first trial as a defence barrister. Although the police and prosecution had the upper hand re the level of disclosure, he and his legal team should have done so much more leading up to trial. The other two adults sustained fight / defense wounds - but they also obviously obtained gunshot wounds. The rifle was intended for farm vermin, so a single shot might not put an adult down, however, they would obviously become inflicted with pain. Sheila was armed and they weren't, its as simple as that. They were taken by suprise by somebody from within the farmhouse in the dead of night, on a mission - ie to send her and her 'babies' to their 'rest'. Nevill would have been in severe pain and he would become exhausted with exertion. There's no mystery re the shots for me. Sheila remained unshot herself until later. I think you're on about that gland in the brain. Not sure who would pay for the scan or whether he has refused.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
The amygdala, the pre frontal cortex and the DNA. It would be useful to consider the genetics in the context of his childhood experiences. Many psychopaths experience happy childhood and so the genetic disposition is not activated and they become quite successful but will still be incapable of true empathy but if people experience an unhappy childhood their psychopathy can emerge. It's the nature/nurture debate.
The DNA analysis would be cheaper I imagine.
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Nukehasslefan
Winger
It sounds like a feasible alternate.
It would sort of make sense with what supposedly transpired in the order it did.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
The only thing I have become convinced of is that people have no idea of what an untreated schizophrenic in a frenzied psychotic state is like and no idea of how different they are under medication. One of the main characteristics of schizophrenia is an inability to concentrate and tests are conducted to establish that rather than short term memory issues.
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The so called split in the personality is between their mind and reality, it is not a multiple personality disorder in which the schizophrenic can suddenly flip between a psychotic episode and a rational state, especially while under medication.
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It should also not be confused with bipolar disorder.
Schizophrenia is an organic condition in the brain and associated with a chemical imbalance that is treated with an appropriate anti psychotic/major tranquilliser. The chemistry does not suddenly revert to an imbalance while under medication.
Schizophrenia is not simply a psychological state but an organic condition.
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Neurosis on the other hand is a psychological condition but we are all neurotic to varying degrees. We all have our irrational fears, phobias and anxieties as a result of childhood experiences.
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We really need to differentiate between psychological conditions (neurosis) and psychosis (organic).
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Jeremy saying to the cops outside when asked if he could describe her says, "She likes to be told she is pretty"
You can just imagine it.
First cop to meet her, "Arl right bonnie lass?"
Sheila, "Why aye man now that you've telt me I'm pretty"
Cop, "Can I have the gun pet"
Sheila, "Nee problem, what's been gannin on here like?"
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It's the incongruity in Jeremy's words as he describes Sheila as "Dolally, bonkers, a nutter, psychotic, a psychopath, crazy, a schizophrenic who should be locked up in a mental hospital and SHE HAS THE GUN.....but she like to be told she's pretty, if that helps".
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The so called split in the personality is between their mind and reality, it is not a multiple personality disorder in which the schizophrenic can suddenly flip between a psychotic episode and a rational state, especially while under medication.
...
It should also not be confused with bipolar disorder.
Schizophrenia is an organic condition in the brain and associated with a chemical imbalance that is treated with an appropriate anti psychotic/major tranquilliser. The chemistry does not suddenly revert to an imbalance while under medication.
Schizophrenia is not simply a psychological state but an organic condition.
...
Neurosis on the other hand is a psychological condition but we are all neurotic to varying degrees. We all have our irrational fears, phobias and anxieties as a result of childhood experiences.
...
We really need to differentiate between psychological conditions (neurosis) and psychosis (organic).
...
Jeremy saying to the cops outside when asked if he could describe her says, "She likes to be told she is pretty"
You can just imagine it.
First cop to meet her, "Arl right bonnie lass?"
Sheila, "Why aye man now that you've telt me I'm pretty"
Cop, "Can I have the gun pet"
Sheila, "Nee problem, what's been gannin on here like?"
...
It's the incongruity in Jeremy's words as he describes Sheila as "Dolally, bonkers, a nutter, psychotic, a psychopath, crazy, a schizophrenic who should be locked up in a mental hospital and SHE HAS THE GUN.....but she like to be told she's pretty, if that helps".
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Nukehasslefan
Winger
None of that lends any credence as to who is to blame.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
Yet you, and others, constantly refer to her schizophrenia in terms of chaotic psychotic episodes whilst at the same time state she was capable of more methodical thinking. Both at the same time. Yet she was on medication. You take examples of when she was not on medication in her past, and then superimpose those onto her state of mind when she was taking medication.
I don't think you have much understanding of schizophrenia.
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A schizophrenic is not psychopathic. The word psychopath is never used to describe a schizophrenic. A schizophrenic does not have multiple personality disorder at any level. The split personality is used to describe the mental split from reality. It is not a dual personality disorder that they flip between. It is an inability to concentrate due to the high levels of neurotransmitters that result in too much stimulus that the brain can not filter out to concentrate. It is an organic condition which is why it is treated with the anti-psychotics also referred to as the major tranquillisers. It is not a very bad case of neurosis that can be treated with the minor tranquillisers such as diazepam.
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A schizophrenic under medication does not flip between psychotic episodes and periods of methodical thinking. They can't because the illness is organic.
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Sheila did not have her medications for the side effects of the antipsychotics such Tardive Dyskinesia that among other symptoms can manifest as rapid, involuntary movements of the limbs, torso, and fingers. Sheila was described as poor coordination at the nest of time yet without this medication for the side effects she can allegedly handle a rifle like a marksman.
It is important to consider her mental and physical ability at the time of the murders.
Jeremy on the other hand is mistaken by a paramedic when he arrives as one of the police because he is so calm and relaxed.
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You want to consider her mental illness when it suits you but you are blind to the true nature of that illness.
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Roker Skate
Central Defender
He vomited at the scene, possibly due to the whiskey the doctor gave him. It came to light many years after his conviction, that when he was informed that everyone was dead, he replied that it was 'those men with the guns' who killed them. His immediate reaction was to blame the raid team for the shootings. Just like describing his sister in terms of being vacant at the dinner table, blaming the TFG doesn't seem to fit with the accusation that he set his sister up to take the blame for the killings. Does it not make more sense that he could exclaim something about Sheila, when informed of the deaths?
