October 2020 - Getting worse across Europe.

Market Where? said:
The article has a quote from the vaccine article ‘ it’s nothing to do with the vaccine’. There is no comparison with any other vaccine which may also have caused the same side effects leading to staff being off work for a very short time.
You have a narrative and you are trying to fit evidence to that.
I am prepared to bet you now that large scale real world results will show no significant difference in effacacy or side affects in Pfizer and AZ in any age group.
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I used that article because it was a summary. Here is the original article that I saw about the French medical workers and the issues with AZ.
www.thelocal.fr

Several French hospitals pause AstraZeneca vaccine campaign over temporary side effects

Several French hospitals are pausing or slowing down AstraZeneca vaccination programmes for their staff because severe - albeit temporary - side effects have caused many employees to need sick leave, causing severe logistical problems in already over-stretched services.
www.thelocal.fr www.thelocal.fr
 


thehighground said:
Is that true? According to that article in Forbes, other vaccines are more effective.
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In trials.
Here is some real world data from last week.

expert reaction to preprint from Scotland looking at hospitalisations in Scotland and vaccinations | Science Media Centre

www.sciencemediacentre.org

Doesn’t fit your narrative though.
thehighground said:
I used that article because it was a summary. Here is the original article that I saw about the French medical workers and the issues with AZ.
www.thelocal.fr

Several French hospitals pause AstraZeneca vaccine campaign over temporary side effects

Several French hospitals are pausing or slowing down AstraZeneca vaccination programmes for their staff because severe - albeit temporary - side effects have caused many employees to need sick leave, causing severe logistical problems in already over-stretched services.
www.thelocal.fr www.thelocal.fr
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It says the same. No impact on effacacy, no long term or seriousness side effects.
 
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thehighground said:
That info only came out a few days ago. Maybe the policy will change, when the Scottish stuff is peer reviewed.
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Yes like I said - trial data showed greater effacacy with Pfizer, although AZ was still very good and the trial was restricted in older groups. Immune response for all groups was positive. Now much larger sets of data from real world vaccinations - again my clearly stated reference point - is showing that AZ is slightly better. That may well be because it is easier to handle and the effacacy of Pfizer deteriorates rapidly when it is above very low temperatures.
The countries where there are a small number of anecdotal reports of side affects in medical staff are only using AZ for that group as they are prioritizing Pfizer stocks for the over 65 s as they won’t use AZ for that group. So you can’t actually say that Pfizer won’t have exactly the seem impact in terms of short term medical staff absence.
 
Market Where? said:
In trials.
Here is some real world data from last week.

expert reaction to preprint from Scotland looking at hospitalisations in Scotland and vaccinations | Science Media Centre

www.sciencemediacentre.org

Doesn’t fit your narrative though.

It says the same. No impact on effacacy, no long term or seriousness side effects.
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But it says that 1/3 of the medical staff were experiencing severe reaction that required that they needed to take sick leave.
The way its working at the moment in most EU countries.

Most countries are still vaccinating their over 65s (though still at the over 70s stage yet) having vaccinated all those in care homes.
The AZ vaccine is being used on under 65s in the category of health care workers who work in hospitals etc. I presume Germany & France etc. will use the AZ vaccine on over 18s, so it won't go to waste, but they have not got around to vaccinating them yet.
The supply of AZ is extremely dodgy at the moment. Ireland has used up about 98% of its AZ supply and last Friday when expecting a delivery of 25,000 doses, and worse still, they only told the HSE on Friday which meant that 25,000 vaccinations had to be cancelled and later rearranged.

Is there any wonder that people outside the UK have concerns about the AZ vaccine when they seem to be so disorganised?
 
tynerider3 said:

I hate to say it, but Britain's doing OK. Even Germany envies us... | Brexit | The Guardian

For diehard Remoaners like me, all this endless good news about jabs and carbon emissions is pretty hard to take
amp.theguardian.com amp.theguardian.com
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"Germany, the nation self-loathing Brits revere more than any other. Germany, which welcomes every immigrant, has sensible governments, and has only ever craved peaceful European integration".

Only ever craved peaceful European integration?

Not quite. Unless of course we pick and choose when "ever" starts. Like the mags and when football started
 
thehighground said:
But it says that 1/3 of the medical staff were experiencing severe reaction that required that they needed to take sick leave.
The way its working at the moment in most EU countries.

Most countries are still vaccinating their over 65s (though still at the over 70s stage yet) having vaccinated all those in care homes.
The AZ vaccine is being used on under 65s in the category of health care workers who work in hospitals etc. I presume Germany & France etc. will use the AZ vaccine on over 18s, so it won't go to waste, but they have not got around to vaccinating them yet.
The supply of AZ is extremely dodgy at the moment. Ireland has used up about 98% of its AZ supply and last Friday when expecting a delivery of 25,000 doses, and worse still, they only told the HSE on Friday which meant that 25,000 vaccinations had to be cancelled and later rearranged.

Is there any wonder that people outside the UK have concerns about the AZ vaccine when they seem to be so disorganised?
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Maybe just maybe if EU had got its finger out a a dam sight quicker and backed the project the manufacture would of been able to put the facilities in place, asks yourself why EU has a supply problem and the UK doesn’t
 
thehighground said:
But it says that 1/3 of the medical staff were experiencing severe reaction that required that they needed to take sick leave.
The way its working at the moment in most EU countries.

Most countries are still vaccinating their over 65s (though still at the over 70s stage yet) having vaccinated all those in care homes.
The AZ vaccine is being used on under 65s in the category of health care workers who work in hospitals etc. I presume Germany & France etc. will use the AZ vaccine on over 18s, so it won't go to waste, but they have not got around to vaccinating them yet.
The supply of AZ is extremely dodgy at the moment. Ireland has used up about 98% of its AZ supply and last Friday when expecting a delivery of 25,000 doses, and worse still, they only told the HSE on Friday which meant that 25,000 vaccinations had to be cancelled and later rearranged.

Is there any wonder that people outside the UK have concerns about the AZ vaccine when they seem to be so disorganised?
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You keep saying severe reactions, but everything you have claimed to be evidence of this says they have had a temperature and are off work for a day or 2 max. in my eyes a severe reaction would be death or loss of limbs, this is just a side effect which many people have from normal vaccines. Due top them being nurses and if you do the entire ward work force in 1 go then you will have an issue, but why would they even contemplate doing the full ward on the same day, that's just terrible planning.

Again the delivery isn't great, but like I have said previously EU purchased them all as a whole, currently some EU countries have hundreds of thousands of doses sitting in fridges unused, they could send them to Ireland, cover the 25k Ireland are waiting for and have them replaced before they were ever going to be used in their own country. Again that's just terrible planning when faced with an issue.

The disorganisation could be solved by planning but it seems like the EU would rather just blame somebody else instead of looking at ways they could solve some of the issues.
 
thehighground said:
But it says that 1/3 of the medical staff were experiencing severe reaction that required that they needed to take sick leave.
The way its working at the moment in most EU countries.

Most countries are still vaccinating their over 65s (though still at the over 70s stage yet) having vaccinated all those in care homes.
The AZ vaccine is being used on under 65s in the category of health care workers who work in hospitals etc. I presume Germany & France etc. will use the AZ vaccine on over 18s, so it won't go to waste, but they have not got around to vaccinating them yet.
The supply of AZ is extremely dodgy at the moment. Ireland has used up about 98% of its AZ supply and last Friday when expecting a delivery of 25,000 doses, and worse still, they only told the HSE on Friday which meant that 25,000 vaccinations had to be cancelled and later rearranged.

Is there any wonder that people outside the UK have concerns about the AZ vaccine when they seem to be so disorganised?
Click to expand...
No mate it’s no wonder at all. There is a dispute between AZ and the EU. Having looked into the information available it would seem that delays in supply of AZ to EU were caused by variability in yield rates which could not be addressed for the EU as there was a three month delay in signing the contract when compared to the UK. The contract being signed being exactly the same contract as Germany were about to sign three months earlier. The EU then had a knee jerk reaction - which would have potentially had very serious consequences for your country had not the head of your country stepped in and got the EU to see common sense. Since then there seem to be further attempts at arse covering by politicians in France and Germany by muddying the waters around effacacy and safety of AZ without any evidence. They also seem to want to deflect from the UKs so far apparently very good vaccine progress. All this has led to doubts about AZ and will cause people to die.
All in all it really shows that politicians should by and large listen to the experts and stop playing silly buggers.
The UK government is far from innocent in this fuck wittery as well - f***ing up PPE and track and trace by ideologically and corruptly favoring their mates and supporters over said experts. For me there also seems to be evidence that the arseholes also interfered in vaccine rollout a couple of weeks ago because some regions were getting ahead of other regions and they were worried about the political and likely ideological implications of that. All they succeeded in doing was slowing the vaccination program down and again unnecessarily killing people.
FoldingStars said:
You keep saying severe reactions, but everything you have claimed to be evidence of this says they have had a temperature and are off work for a day or 2 max. in my eyes a severe reaction would be death or loss of limbs, this is just a side effect which many people have from normal vaccines. Due top them being nurses and if you do the entire ward work force in 1 go then you will have an issue, but why would they even contemplate doing the full ward on the same day, that's just terrible planning.

Again the delivery isn't great, but like I have said previously EU purchased them all as a whole, currently some EU countries have hundreds of thousands of doses sitting in fridges unused, they could send them to Ireland, cover the 25k Ireland are waiting for and have them replaced before they were ever going to be used in their own country. Again that's just terrible planning when faced with an issue.

The disorganisation could be solved by planning but it seems like the EU would rather just blame somebody else instead of looking at ways they could solve some of the issues.
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You also need to factor in that Pfizer is not being used in those same groups where problems have apparently occurred. If it had you may well have had exactly the same absence issues.
 
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CEF said:
So essentially it's largely because they don't think it's very effective, which it has proved to have been (80+% protection against hospitalisation and 100% against death, not to mention cutting majority of transmission), and so would rather have nothing and wait for a different one?

I'm assuming that they don't believe it's very effective because of the lies the Germans and Macron etc have been spreading? And so they are pretty much directly responsible for the fiascos in their own and other European countries. This is a scandal on a huge scale.
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Why do you keep repeating these lies and nonsense ?

It was the very highly respected Robert Koch Institute in Germany who said there was insufficient data to judge how effective the vaccine was for people over 65, and as a result it could only recommend using the vaccine on people aged 18 to 64. That was not lies from the Institute but a recommendation based on the scientific evidence available to them at the time.

Why do you keep picking out only Germany and Macron in France for your spinning of lies ? Many other countries such as Austria, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain and Poland only recommended it for people under 65, and Italy and Belgium for those under 55 based on the scientific evidence they had from the manufacturer. What do you think Switzerland based their choice on not to use AstraZeneca at all ? Or how about the USA who have not even approved it unlike the EMA.

You clearly have an anti European agenda and feel the need to spin lies and half truths to suit that agenda.
 
El Matador said:
Why do you keep repeating these lies and nonsense ?

It was the very highly respected Robert Koch Institute in Germany who said there was insufficient data to judge how effective the vaccine was for people over 65, and as a result it could only recommend using the vaccine on people aged 18 to 64. That was not lies from the Institute but a recommendation based on the scientific evidence available to them at the time.

Why do you keep picking out only Germany and Macron in France for your spinning of lies ? Many other countries such as Austria, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain and Poland only recommended it for people under 65, and Italy and Belgium for those under 55 based on the scientific evidence they had from the manufacturer. What do you think Switzerland based their choice on not to use AstraZeneca at all ? Or how about the USA who have not even approved it unlike the EMA.

You clearly have an anti European agenda and feel the need to spin lies and half truths to suit that agenda.
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\Your basing your whole argument on recommendations made prior to the mass use of AZ , the resulting data has now debunked those claims as unfounded , its nothing to do with any anti europe bias, the facts are there for all to see, hospital admissions for the over 65's with the AZ vaccine are down 94% , with pfizer 84% both great figures. European medical experts were entitled to raise concerns prior to the roll out. The issue is , now that they have been proved wrong , they are unable/unwilling to persuade their own population to welcome AZ. Its very sad and no doubt will cost lives.
 
ontap said:
\Your basing your whole argument on recommendations made prior to the mass use of AZ , the resulting data has now debunked those claims as unfounded , its nothing to do with any anti europe bias, the facts are there for all to see, hospital admissions for the over 65's with the AZ vaccine are down 94% , with pfizer 84% both great figures. European medical experts were entitled to raise concerns prior to the roll out. The issue is , now that they have been proved wrong , they are unable/unwilling to persuade their own population to welcome AZ. Its very sad and no doubt will cost lives.
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surely a bit early to say that
 

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