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Black Lives Matter

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The Fish said:
I disagree, race relations in this country (and the US) have been set back decades by the rise to prominence of racists in positions of power or influence, and subsequently the normalisation of racism, jingoism and twisted nationalism. Hate crimes spiked after the EU Referendum and after the Manchester Bombing (
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). The latter spike, I expect, were reactions from a need to get revenge against people who look, sound or worship in a similar way to the terrorist. The former, in my opinion, was because of the rhetoric used by the Pro-Brexit politicians and demagogues.
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I finally got round to reading that report, just a skim to be honest and not the attention it deserves.
Just to get your thoughts on a couple of things:
The report shows a spike in hate crime post referendum which you attribute to the rhetoric of the brexitiers. If this was the reason for the spike I would have expected to have seen the spike in the immediate couple of weeks before and after as that is when things are at there most hostile. Why do you think the spike didn't occur until a month after the referendum, seems odd.

In the conclusion of the report it says claims bu some that the increase in hate crime is due to a increase in reporting hold not water because figures show that there was no significant increase in violent hate crime.
What do you make of the fact they add the word violent into the equation?
Does that mean there could have been a significant increase of the less serious hate crime incidents, name calling etc but the serious incidents didn't change much?

I believe in 2015 the CPS had a change in direction in regard to hate crimes, they changed the guide lines for police on how to treat hate crimes and this was solidified in the 2017-2020 hate crime strategy.
The new guidelines move away from what a person intends to how it is perceived by the person making the complaint. (correct me if i'm wrong here, it's not a area of interest of mine so i may well be)
So for example moving away from race for safety:
Several years ago if I sent out a tweet saying that I don't believe transgenders are women and should not be allowed in female only spaces that would be fine as it's an opinion.
Today if I do the same and someone reports it to the police and say they feel this is violence toward them the police fill out a crime report, log it as a hate crime and file it as a none crime hate incident.
There are around 120 000 of these reports, 120 000 hate crimes on the figures that can be nothing more than a hyper woke individual being overly sensitive to someones reasoned and rationale view point.
Do you think something like this can be over exaggerating the amount of hate crime?
 
themanagersnot2blame said:
Pride has no meaning if it’s just a fuzzy feeling about something that just happens to be the case.
How can you be proud of something you just are?
I’m not proud (or ashamed) to be British, my fathers son or white - i just am those things.
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Come on man, you have to have pride in your ancestors, the early farmers, seafarers and warriors that built the country. Without that your foundations are built on nothing, absolutely nothing, weak as piss.
 
AndyH said:
I finally got round to reading that report, just a skim to be honest and not the attention it deserves.
Just to get your thoughts on a couple of things:
The report shows a spike in hate crime post referendum which you attribute to the rhetoric of the brexitiers. If this was the reason for the spike I would have expected to have seen the spike in the immediate couple of weeks before and after as that is when things are at there most hostile. Why do you think the spike didn't occur until a month after the referendum, seems odd.

In the conclusion of the report it says claims bu some that the increase in hate crime is due to a increase in reporting hold not water because figures show that there was no significant increase in violent hate crime.
What do you make of the fact they add the word violent into the equation?
Does that mean there could have been a significant increase of the less serious hate crime incidents, name calling etc but the serious incidents didn't change much?

I believe in 2015 the CPS had a change in direction in regard to hate crimes, they changed the guide lines for police on how to treat hate crimes and this was solidified in the 2017-2020 hate crime strategy.
The new guidelines move away from what a person intends to how it is perceived by the person making the complaint. (correct me if i'm wrong here, it's not a area of interest of mine so i may well be)
So for example moving away from race for safety:
Several years ago if I sent out a tweet saying that I don't believe transgenders are women and should not be allowed in female only spaces that would be fine as it's an opinion.
Today if I do the same and someone reports it to the police and say they feel this is violence toward them the police fill out a crime report, log it as a hate crime and file it as a none crime hate incident.
There are around 120 000 of these reports, 120 000 hate crimes on the figures that can be nothing more than a hyper woke individual being overly sensitive to someones reasoned and rationale view point.
Do you think something like this can be over exaggerating the amount of hate crime?
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There was a significant spike after the referendum. Telling people to go home being one of the main things, increased assaults On taxi drivers, some examples of women being told to remove hijabs etc. I was working on something related at the time. Not realising they were taking the time. Reporting of hate crime is estimated to be extremely low,
 
SAFCOldie said:
Come on man, you have to have pride in your ancestors, the early farmers, seafarers and warriors that built the country. Without that your foundations are built on nothing, absolutely nothing, weak as piss.
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What about shame then? If you have pride in those things do you also feel shame for all of the killing, exploitation and interference in other countries business? Or is it just a one way street?

I think you will find that pride is the most needless and weakest foundation you could ever build something on.

“The disesteem and contempt of others is inseparable from pride. It is hardly possible to overvalue ourselves but by undervaluing our neighbors.”

“Pride is a deeply rooted ailment of the soul. The penalty is misery; the remedy lies in the sincere, life-long cultivation of humility, which means true self-evaluation and a proper perspective toward past, present and future.”

“Conceit may puff a man up, but can never prop him up.”

“Conceit (pride) is God’s gift to little men.”

“Conceit is to nature what paint is to beauty; it is not only needless, but it impairs what it would improve.”
 
themanagersnot2blame said:
What about shame then? If you have pride in those things do you also feel shame for all of the killing, exploitation and interference in other countries business? Or is it just a one way street?
I think you will find that pride is the most needless and weakest foundation you could ever build something on.
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I'd be very interested to understand what people would rather be, when they live "in shame" for what their ancestors may have done to create the current world? Given that it is a fallen world, and we can't recreate the Garden of Eden, if you feel no pride in your heritage and only shame, would you rather be one of the oppressed minorities, so you could look at the world through a victim's lens?

I think you'd find that most of those people would rather not be in their circumstances, and would swap their lives for one of relative privilege in an instant. So why can't those of us who do have privileges not enjoy them, and be grateful for them (and, by extension, the things that happened in the past that we can't change, but have given us our current "easy" lives)? Not living in shame doesn't mean you have to live in a conceited way, with a "couldn't care less" attitude. It is imperative that we do behave with humility and thankfulness, but humility is not the same as shame.

Constantly being ashamed of what you are (though most of us have made little direct contribution to that), and always wanting to be sorry is a very negative way to live life. Saying sorry for the past is not going to change anything for the better - perhaps it vindicates the oppressed for their sense of victimhood, but it does not positively change their circumstances in any way, and probably just increases the distance between the "haves" and the "have nots" ("see I always knew they were bastards, and now they've admitted it - I hate those bastards"). Are we ever likely to receive a meaningful apology from the Romans, the Vikings or the Normans for what they did to the existing British population? Better that we accept and enjoy what we have and try to help others to get there.
 
SAFCDownUnder said:
I'd be very interested to understand what people would rather be, when they live "in shame" for what their ancestors may have done to create the current world? Given that it is a fallen world, and we can't recreate the Garden of Eden, if you feel no pride in your heritage and only shame, would you rather be one of the oppressed minorities, so you could look at the world through a victim's lens?

I think you'd find that most of those people would rather not be in their circumstances, and would swap their lives for one of relative privilege in an instant. So why can't those of us who do have privileges not enjoy them, and be grateful for them (and, by extension, the things that happened in the past that we can't change, but have given us our current "easy" lives)? Not living in shame doesn't mean you have to live in a conceited way, with a "couldn't care less" attitude. It is imperative that we do behave with humility and thankfulness, but humility is not the same as shame.

Constantly being ashamed of what you are (though most of us have made little direct contribution to that), and always wanting to be sorry is a very negative way to live life. Saying sorry for the past is not going to change anything for the better - perhaps it vindicates the oppressed for their sense of victimhood, but it does not positively change their circumstances in any way, and probably just increases the distance between the "haves" and the "have nots" ("see I always knew they were bastards, and now they've admitted it - I hate those bastards"). Are we ever likely to receive a meaningful apology from the Romans, the Vikings or the Normans for what they did to the existing British population? Better that we accept and enjoy what we have and try to help others to get there.
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My point was that we should feel neither pride nor shame for things we haven’t been involved in/ that happened before we were born. We should learn from his history of course - but our past does not define who we are as individuals here today. indulging yourself in pride or shame is a senseless and futile action.
 
This all stems from identity politics that has permeated down from the academic classes, the further down it goes the more divisive it gets. It creates racial tension that didn’t exist on 10/20 years ago.

The part I find difficult to stomach is the challenge to my view that by not getting involved in conversations about race and alleged injustices to black people that I’m passive and unwittingly racist and support and system of oppression that disadvantages BAME. I alway thought calling out racism and championing people getting into positions on merit was the right thing but now that’s not enough in some people’s eyes. Now everything has to framed in race and my acknowledgement of white privilege.
 
Thomas Hearns said:
This all stems from identity politics that has permeated down from the academic classes, the further down it goes the more divisive it gets. It creates racial tension that didn’t exist on 10/20 years ago.

The part I find difficult to stomach is the challenge to my view that by not getting involved in conversations about race and alleged injustices to black people that I’m passive and unwittingly racist and support and system of oppression that disadvantages BAME. I alway thought calling out racism and championing people getting into positions on merit was the right thing but now that’s not enough in some people’s eyes. Now everything has to framed in race and my acknowledgement of white privilege.
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You see this is what I can’t fathom? Surely there’s isn’t a victory for the oppressed by having tokens in high places just to please people?
I mean by all means if they excel in that particular field then I don’t care what colour or religion these people are, as an example in my life time Barack Obama has to be the best president America has seen!
 
themanagersnot2blame said:
My point was that we should feel neither pride nor shame for things we haven’t been involved in/ that happened before we were born. We should learn from his history of course - but our past does not define who we are as individuals here today. indulging yourself in pride or shame is a senseless and futile action.
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No future in History....
 
Royal_blue_90 said:
You see this is what I can’t fathom? Surely there’s isn’t a victory for the oppressed by having tokens in high places just to please people?
I mean by all means if they excel in that particular field then I don’t care what colour or religion these people are, as an example in my life time Barack Obama has to be the best president America has seen!
Click to expand...
Barack Obama can't have been president, white people don't let black people have the good jobs as all the lefties and black rights movements people keep telling us. Only 13% of America is black and the majority of white people are racists that oppress the blacks therefore surely it's impossible for a black person to reach the worlds highest office. You must have imagined it unless skin colour isn't as important as they keep saying it is.
 
AndyH said:
Barack Obama can't have been president, white people don't let black people have the good jobs as all the lefties and black rights movements people keep telling us. Only 13% of America is black and the majority of white people are racists that oppress the blacks therefore surely it's impossible for a black person to reach the worlds highest office. You must have imagined it unless skin colour isn't as important as they keep saying it is.
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One example of a black man achieving greatness = racism doesn’t exist.

ps What are you trying to achieve here? What do you want us to conclude?
 
There’s no argument that a better slogan would be all lives matter...putting colour into the word defeats the point that the focus shouldnt be on colour if we are to truly change , dispite that it’s a great movement and hopefully we will get to the point in the near future when all lives matter. ...the bigger equality problem in this county and prob around the world is classes , always found it strange this is never highlighted
 
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