It makes perfect sense as Benitez is perfectly entitled to walk away if he is being offered a shite deal. He's under no obligation to stay and have Ashley take the piss out of him.
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June to July 2020 - NUFC
- Thread starter Black Cat Gypsy
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It makes perfect sense as Benitez is perfectly entitled to walk away if he is being offered a shite deal. He's under no obligation to stay and have Ashley take the piss out of him.
Super Ted
Striker
How often has a player been bought for 40+ million, then sold on for even more than the original ransfer? I'm sorry, but this notion that Joelinton was signed as part of resale plan for years to come doesn't wash with me. I agree with your comments about the scouting team convicing Ashley he is going to be something special, but the notion is was purely done so he could expect an even bigger return on a 40M player is farfetched.
The Fish
Winger
I'm expecting a "If he loved the club as he said, he would have stayed regardless". Or something else straight from the Richard Keys book of insanity.
Super Ted
Striker
I personally think that Benitez was wanting specific demands that Ashley couldn't stretch to and he knew that.
From Benitez viewpoint i think it was either one of two things, Ashley caved in to his entire demands and Benitez gets exactly what he wants on his terms or he knew he could get mega money elsewhere as a backup.
Well lets be honest, he has hardly moved onto a challenging manegerial position since has he. He literally took an option of joining a tin-pot team, in a tin-pot league on a salary earning him about 12 million quid a year.
Or do you believe he went there for a 'project' too?
Which echoes my point that a deal was offered and it wasn't just a simple case of Ashley not wanting to keep him
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How do you know he was offered a shite deal? He chased the money in china
The Fish
Winger
I literally say in the post you quote that I don't think resale was the driving factor for Joelinton. Just really bad scouting advice. You know what though, Joelinton might be a decent player in a very different set up. Nagelsman(sp?) seemed to know how to set the team up to his strengths, and how to get the best out of the lad. Could be that Bruce just doesn't get that he's not a striker, he's reportedly more like Ayoze Perez in terms of position, pressing and link up play. Whether those reports are accurate is another question entirely.
It's all guesswork, but there's educated guesses and there's the other kind. There's scant financial reward for finishing in the top half outside of Europe, there's significant penalty for relegation. If you're purely motivated by the health of the balance sheet then avoiding cups (which pressure a thin squad), neglecting the academy and training grounds (where there's little guaranteed money to be made), buying players to sell, investing to return to the moneyed Premier League, it all makes sense.
But if you're looking to own a football club, striving to achieve more is imperative. What is a football club without ambition for more? Liverpool want more trophies, Leicester want more Champions League games, Everton want to get back to being the best of the rest and no doubt add to their trophy cabinet, Leeds want to get back to the top flight, you want promotion as soon as possible. Every club should be striving for more, that's what competitive sport is about.
Banks
Striker
I never said that at all
Bit of a difference between the level of Rafa Benitez and Steve McClaren like, but carry on.
Ah changing the argument again. Now because I've proven Rafa had a dry spell with trophies when appointed its now McClaren isn't as good as Benitez.
MaClaren won trophy's domestic and abroad. Served as a number 2 at England's biggest club. Was the national team manager. Reached the uefa cup final. At Twente was a penalty shootout away from a Europa League QF which is held as a badge of honour in this thread. Not good enough for a team that haven't won anything for 70 years though.
Super Ted
Striker
Regarding the first paragraph, I know you did and i responded to say that i agreed.
Second point, I agree again. I don't think your being unreasonable in your suggestions / opinion. I can see your viewpoint, but i don't think its as black and white as the majority of Newcastle fans seem to think.
This season more so than most has shown Ashleys willingness to invest more now, than he has done in any season prior. There is also a fairly valid argument that this season alone, Bruce has done a better job than Benitez did last. You are also in an FA Cup QF for the first time in a long time and generally have a fairly decent side. Good goalkeeper, solid at the back, two NUFC academy products in and around the first team, good youngsters out on loan getting first team experience, pace with ASM and Almiron on the wings (both recently heavily funded by Ashley) and a 40m striker upfront.
It's with the points I have made above, that shows why I disagree with the opinion that Mike Ashley simply offers NUFC the bare minimum and he only strives to simply finish 17th year on year.
The Fish
Winger
I've no doubt that $omething per$uaded Ra£a Benitez to join the Chinese team ahead of more modest budgets in Europe. But, I don't really care. Had he received the assurances in writing, the control to press on with the work he'd begun at Newcastle, I'm sure he would have stayed. That he didn't is the responsibility of Mike Ashley. Benitez wasn't demanding the sort of funds that Ashley had previously stated we don't have, he wanted to sign a player with fuck all resale value because he knew Rondon could do the job he wanted. He wanted to improve the training facilities because it'd cut down on injuries and that thin squad would better cope with the rigours of the campaign. He wanted money invested in the academy because if you can train talent from within, that makes more sense than the gamble of the transfer market.
Were I a frugal billionaire, I'd probably rather spend £5m on the training ground, instead of gambling on another Henri Saivet. I'd want to pay for a top class academy instead of £15m on Florian Thauvin, so future Carrolls and Longstaffs weren't as rare as they are.. I'd sure as shit rather pay £16m on a proven Rondon, than £40m on an unproven non-goalscoring forward like Joelinton.
Bears Beets
Striker
Bear
Striker
The Fish
Winger
Bruce has more points at this point than Benitez did. Lets see where we are when the season ends. Also, didn't Bruce's returns diminish as time went on at Sunderland? Certainly seems the case elsewhere. I'm not dismissing Bruce's return entirely, there's definitely a spirit in the camp that harks back to Hughton's Championship side. However, when you add context to each of you points, they lose their potency, imo. We are in an FA Cup semi and Bruce certainly fielded strong sides so as to take them seriously. But we beat Oxford and Rochdale over 4 games, not exactly impressive from a strong side, is it?
The goalkeeper and centrebacks are chiefly Benitez signings, signings he reportedly had to fight for. However we're fundamentally not solid at the back at all. We've conceded 41 goals in 29 league games. Last season we conceded 48, total. If you don't dismiss xG stats out of hand, only 3 teams give up more quality chances than we do, our 'keeper has had to make more saves than any other in the league.
Those two academy products are halfway out of the door because they're getting better offers elsewhere, offers from clubs who're actually going places. ASM and Almiron are good players, no doubt, the latter is, again, a player that Benitez had to fight the owner to sign against his instincts.
The £40m forward has done nothing to suggest it was a footballing decision to sign him. Everyone can see that, at best, he's not the right kind of forward for Newcastle United at the minute.
Super Ted
Striker
Alot of that on face value is spot on, however i do think Benitez used soundbites that appealed to the fans to justify his reasonings why a contract was never agreed.
Benitez rarely spends longer than 4 seasons at any club, infact apart from Liverpool, he has never spent more than 4 seasons at any club in his entire managerial career spanning 27 years, so this whole idea he wanted to generate expert training facilities and a top-class academy as part of a long-term project appears to be complete bullshit in all honesty.
Lets see where they end up.
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Banks
Striker
What a silly argument. Your whole point stands on goals conceded and expected chances.
It's impossible to use this as a variable when the opposition faced and your own team is different from the season previous.
Something as basic as replacing Rondon with Jamie Vardy for example would mean the ball is being held up less and more chances would come to your goalkeeper so would you be upset if you had signed Jamie Vardy rather than Joelinton?
i
MaClaren won trophy's domestic and abroad. Served as a number 2 at England's biggest club. Was the national team manager. Reached the uefa cup final. At Twente was a penalty shootout away from a Europa League QF which is held as a badge of honour in this thread. Not good enough for a team that haven't won anything for 70 years though.
The fact we were in the bottom 3 from the end of August up until he was sacked in March suggests he wasn't good enough. He had some very good players in the squad as well.
Banks
Striker
Means nothing. Success in football isn't guaranteed. On paper he was more than good enough for nufc when appointed.
Achieved more than Gullit who I don't seem to recall many moaning about when appointed.
Roker Mackem
Striker
Went through on Saturday didnt it? Read it on here.
The Fish
Winger
See, if he was purely motivated by money, why take a job in the Championship? Chinese clubs didn't suddenly become aware of him because he got us back into the Premier League. He was free to speak to anyone he wanted. If it was just the cash, why not take that opportunity to get rich(er) quick(er)?
I've no doubt Benitez said nice things to get the fans on side, it makes sense to do that. If the fans are behind the manager and the team, it works in their favour. 52,000 screaming jawdees and all that. But all the testimonies of the man paint a picture of a bloke who loves the game, who tries to form a bond with fans and the area, not of a mercenary who's after money and trophies and to hell with what people think. the only place I've heard him painted as a money chasing fraud is on here, or from Everton fans. Can't imagine why.
So away from the place that he really took to, and who took to him then?
And of the other clubs, how much of a pressing concern were their training facilities, their academy? I doubt Real Madrid were dunking Christiano Ronaldo and Pepe in wheelie bin ice baths...
Gullit had literally just won the FA Cup and was a young manager who seemed on the up, at the time. McClaren was clearly in decline. A decline he continued at Newcastle, and beyond. What's the esteemed manager up to these days?
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Secret Visage
Striker
WTO report due out on Tuesday, that's the starting gun for a yes or no, imo.
As an aside, the beheaders derby takes place this Sunday.
The Fish
Winger
Hang on a gosh darn second. I'm repeatedly told on here that Bruce is doing better than Benitez? But the opposition faced and our own team is different from the season previous?
and the Abu Derby is on the 28th
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