the chinese are lying

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taipeisafc said:
I dont know, the one i read about was censured a little before that in mid Jan i think.
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With a first case in November. So 2 - 2.5 months of cover ups transmitting the disease out the country, and all over the world, for months before even notifying anyone of anything at all.

Then only deciding the last day of March the disease can spread in asymptomatic patients despite other countries and the WHO knowing months before that that was the case?
 


www.ibtimes.sg

Ai Fen missing: Authorities share mysterious post on Wuhan doctor's profile to cover tracks?

Ai Fen, the Wuhan doctor who first to raise an alarm over the coronavirus outbreak, has apparently gone missing, according to an investigation by "60 Minutes, Australia."
www.ibtimes.sg www.ibtimes.sg

www.dailymail.co.uk

Wuhan doctor who went public over spread of coronavirus 'goes missing'

Dr Ai Fen said she faced 'unprecedented, extremely harsh reprimanded' by officials at Wuhan Central Hospital after she shared a picture of a patient report labelled 'SARS coronavirus'.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
How can you trust the government of any country that allows a significant section of its industries to thrive on manufacturing and exporting counterfeit goods, including drugs that are positively dangerous? The Chinese people are generally lovely folk but the Chinese state deserves to be a global pariah. Now they are attempting to throw a smokescreen over their treachery by offering all this aid to other countries, buying favour if you will.
 
bonsai said:
www.bloomberg.com

China Concealed Extent of Virus Outbreak, U.S. Intelligence Says

China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths it’s suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials.
www.bloomberg.com www.bloomberg.com
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The fact that you cannot see how anonymous, unseen, unverified U.S "intelligence" reports are not being used here to push a political agenda is quite worrying to be honest.

There is no content, it's delivered as a sentence via the medium of the white house on very suspect timing.

The same type of thing claimed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction in 2003. This is what the American government does, this is how it deceives people.
Scimmy said:
How can you trust the government of any country that allows a significant section of its industries to thrive on manufacturing and exporting counterfeit goods, including drugs that are positively dangerous? The Chinese people are generally lovely folk but the Chinese state deserves to be a global pariah. Now they are attempting to throw a smokescreen over their treachery by offering all this aid to other countries, buying favour if you will.
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What a monumental sack of absolute bollocks.
 
look out piano said:
It's basically their lies that have fucked us over. If we'd known the true figures and just how dangerous this virus is we'd have probably locked shit down sooner.
Shame on the Chinese government, they've literally got the blood of the world on their hands :evil:.
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We still thought the risk was moderate only a few weeks ago by which time the Chinese were sharing their research and warning people. I don’t think we’d have done anything different and don’t think we planned to lock down at all until it was obvious upto half a million would die.
 
MrOompapa said:
The fact that you cannot see how anonymous, unseen, unverified U.S "intelligence" reports are not being used here to push a political agenda is quite worrying to be honest.

There is no content, it's delivered as a sentence via the medium of the white house on very suspect timing.

The same type of thing claimed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction in 2003. This is what the American government does, this is how it deceives people.


What a monumental sack of absolute bollocks.
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Do you dispute the claim that China are hiding the true number of cases?

It doesn't really seem plausible, even with severe lockdown, that they'd be both the country where it originated and have a disproportionately low rate of deaths per 100,000 people.

We can be almost certain that Wuhan was the epicentre, and we know that lockdowns didn't start until long after the virus was circulating - elsewise it wouldn't be a global pandemic of this case.

Those two factors alone do not tally with China's death figures. If they aren't outright hiding them, they certainly are not recording them in the same way other countries have.
 
Frijj said:
Do you dispute the claim that China are hiding the true number of cases?

It doesn't really seem plausible, even with severe lockdown, that they'd be both the country where it originated and have a disproportionately low rate of deaths per 100,000 people.

We can be almost certain that Wuhan was the epicentre, and we know that lockdowns didn't start until long after the virus was circulating - elsewise it wouldn't be a global pandemic of this case.

Those two factors alone do not tally with China's death figures. If they aren't outright hiding them, they certainly are not recording them in the same way other countries have.
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I don't think you are making particularly invalid points. I was more focusing on the obvious distraction by the U.S government from their predicament, and think this ought to be understood within its political context and motivations.

Here is my take. I believe the overwhelming political focus on discrediting the Chinese government also overlooks some factors and variables that on a people level, Chinese people (the same rule goes for the rest of Asia) were better prepared as individuals than westerners due to more social experience of a pandemic.

They know that they need to keep isolated, they know they need to wear masks and follow official advice. They are not as stupid or deceived as assumed by the west. These are things some people here took for granted. The zero-sum assessment as to whether the CCP lied or not clouds a more objective judgement. On a people level, I can assure you they did work hard.

Of course I will accept you can highlight some valid methodological questions about their reporting and I wouldn't see fit to play this down. I don't think scepticism is particularly wrong here, but hare brained takes such as "millions of Chinese people died" do prompt me to get people to question the other side of the argument too.

It might not be as good as what China's government claim, but it's also not as bad as some here hope it was and I believe just like the former, there is meaningful evidence for this. I think in mainstream reporting, the fact that China has largely overcome the virus and saw off its curve is a given which is unfair to dismiss, even if we have more questions.

As for the "point of origin" you also did mention in a previous post that "all it takes is one person"- Geography has been shown not to be an absolute factor in the trajectory of the virus in given countries, hence why as I said countries surrounding China have not been hit hard at all (because they know how to prepare).

Thus as my quote above sets out, I have a million reasons not to trust opportunistically timed U.S "intelligence" leaks.
 
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MrOompapa said:
I don't think you are making particularly invalid points. I was more focusing on the obvious distraction by the U.S government from their predicament, and think this ought to be understood within its political context and motivations.

Here is my take. I believe the overwhelming political focus on discrediting the Chinese government also overlooks some factors and variables that on a people level, Chinese people (the same rule goes for the rest of Asia) were better prepared as individuals than westerners due to more social experience of a pandemic.

They know that they need to keep isolated, they know they need to wear masks and follow official advice. They are not as stupid or deceived as assumed by the west. These are things some people here took for granted. The zero-sum assessment as to whether the CCP lied or not clouds a more objective judgement. On a people level, I can assure you they did work hard.

Of course I will accept you can highlight some valid methodological questions about their reporting and I wouldn't see fit to play this down. I don't think scepticism is particularly wrong here, but hare brained takes such as "millions of Chinese people died" do prompt me to get people to question the other side of the argument too.

It might not be as good as what China's government claim, but it's also not as bad as some here hope it was and I believe just like the former, there is meaningful evidence for this. I think in mainstream reporting, the fact that China has largely overcome the virus and saw off its curve is a given which is unfair to dismiss, even if we have more questions.

As for the "point of origin" you also did mention in a previous post that "all it takes is one person"- Geography has been shown not to be an absolute factor in the trajectory of the virus in given countries, hence why as I said countries surrounding China have not been hit hard at all (because they know how to prepare).

Thus as my quote above sets out, I have a million reasons not to trust opportunistically timed U.S "intelligence" leaks.
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Hell of a lot of effort into that post for a footy message board.
Why?
 
MrOompapa said:
I don't think you are making particularly invalid points. I was more focusing on the obvious distraction by the U.S government from their predicament, and think this ought to be understood within its political context and motivations.

Here is my take. I believe the overwhelming political focus on discrediting the Chinese government also overlooks some factors and variables that on a people level, Chinese people (the same rule goes for the rest of Asia) were better prepared as individuals than westerners due to more social experience of a pandemic.

They know that they need to keep isolated, they know they need to wear masks and follow official advice. They are not as stupid or deceived as assumed by the west. These are things some people here took for granted. The zero-sum assessment as to whether the CCP lied or not clouds a more objective judgement. On a people level, I can assure you they did work hard.

Of course I will accept you can highlight some valid methodological questions about their reporting and I wouldn't see fit to play this down. I don't think scepticism is particularly wrong here, but hare brained takes such as "millions of Chinese people died" do prompt me to get people to question the other side of the argument too.

It might not be as good as what China's government claim, but it's also not as bad as some here hope it was and I believe just like the former, there is meaningful evidence for this. I think in mainstream reporting, the fact that China has largely overcome the virus and saw off its curve is a given which is unfair to dismiss, even if we have more questions.

As for the "point of origin" you also did mention in a previous post that "all it takes is one person"- Geography has been shown not to be an absolute factor in the trajectory of the virus in given countries, hence why as I said countries surrounding China have not been hit hard at all (because they know how to prepare).

Thus as my quote above sets out, I have a million reasons not to trust opportunistically timed U.S "intelligence" leaks.
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China's fucked mate. Neety neet.
 
Frijj said:
Do you dispute the claim that China are hiding the true number of cases?

It doesn't really seem plausible, even with severe lockdown, that they'd be both the country where it originated and have a disproportionately low rate of deaths per 100,000 people.

We can be almost certain that Wuhan was the epicentre, and we know that lockdowns didn't start until long after the virus was circulating - elsewise it wouldn't be a global pandemic of this case.

Those two factors alone do not tally with China's death figures. If they aren't outright hiding them, they certainly are not recording them in the same way other countries have.
Click to expand...

There's huge regional variations within this country which is significantly more closely connected than China. If we used their strategy from tomorrow, we'd probably see the majority of the country barely effected.
 
r@mside said:
There's huge regional variations within this country which is significantly more closely connected than China. If we used their strategy from tomorrow, we'd probably see the majority of the country barely effected.
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If we used their strategy a month ago maybe.
 
I have a minor in Chinese history. Utterly useless.

Chinese have been ruled by despots for 6000 years. It's expected that they will lie. The first dynasties to the CCP, and everyone in between.
MrOompapa said:
I don't think you are making particularly invalid points. I was more focusing on the obvious distraction by the U.S government from their predicament, and think this ought to be understood within its political context and motivations.

Here is my take. I believe the overwhelming political focus on discrediting the Chinese government also overlooks some factors and variables that on a people level, Chinese people (the same rule goes for the rest of Asia) were better prepared as individuals than westerners due to more social experience of a pandemic.

They know that they need to keep isolated, they know they need to wear masks and follow official advice. They are not as stupid or deceived as assumed by the west. These are things some people here took for granted. The zero-sum assessment as to whether the CCP lied or not clouds a more objective judgement. On a people level, I can assure you they did work hard.

Of course I will accept you can highlight some valid methodological questions about their reporting and I wouldn't see fit to play this down. I don't think scepticism is particularly wrong here, but hare brained takes such as "millions of Chinese people died" do prompt me to get people to question the other side of the argument too.

It might not be as good as what China's government claim, but it's also not as bad as some here hope it was and I believe just like the former, there is meaningful evidence for this. I think in mainstream reporting, the fact that China has largely overcome the virus and saw off its curve is a given which is unfair to dismiss, even if we have more questions.

As for the "point of origin" you also did mention in a previous post that "all it takes is one person"- Geography has been shown not to be an absolute factor in the trajectory of the virus in given countries, hence why as I said countries surrounding China have not been hit hard at all (because they know how to prepare).

Thus as my quote above sets out, I have a million reasons not to trust opportunistically timed U.S "intelligence" leaks.
Click to expand...
I think you have very little problem with the CCP cover up, including the ejection of the media who were reporting on the goings on in China.

The CCP has locked out any non official reports out of China. US intelligence "leaks" are just the latest. Trust them or not. All of the OBJECTIVE info coming out of China points to a massive coverup.
 
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ElGuapo said:
I have a minor in Chinese history. Utterly useless.

Chinese have been ruled by despots for 6000 years. It's expected that they will lie. The first dynasties to the CCP, and everyone in between.

I think you have very little problem with the CCP cover up, including the ejection of the media who were reporting on the goings on in China.

The CCP has locked out any non official reports out of China. US intelligence "leaks" are just the latest. Trust them or not. All of the OBJECTIVE info coming out of China points to a massive coverup.
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No it doesn't.

An objective picture would acknowledge that even if the statistics are not clear, life in China is clearly returning to normal and that they made meaningful progress in overcoming the outbreak. People are only denying this because in an unreasonable why because we cannot come to terms with our own failures.

I don't think saying "they've been ruled by despots by 6000" years is a helpful interpretation here at all, that's orientalism as it exaggerates differentiation and makes several cultural generalisations (as if you are saying Chinese people are inclined to telling lies?).

It's like you overlook the fact that liberal democracy in the west is not even 200 years old and you believe we have always been progressive and enlightened compared to those backwards Chinese.
 
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MrOompapa said:
No it doesn't.

An objective picture would acknowledge that even if the statistics are not clear, life in China is clearly returning to normal and that they made meaningful progress in overcoming the outbreak. People are only denying this because in an unreasonable why because we cannot come to terms with our own failures.

I don't think saying "they've been ruled by despots by 6000" years is a helpful interpretation here at all, that's orientalism as it exaggerates differentiation and makes several cultural generalisations (as if you are saying Chinese people are inclined to telling lies?).

It's like you overlook the fact that liberal democracy in the west is not even 200 years old and you believe we have always been progressive and enlightened compared to those backwards Chinese.
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I can only speak to what history has shown. The Chinese governments have been utterly despotic. Emperors, warlords, Kuomintang, CCP.... Culturally this is all that the Chinese have known.

I find NOTHING in what the CCP has said to be truthful.

Please don't confuse the delightful people of China with their government leadership.
 
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