Fletch
Striker
Yeah that copper comes out if it badly must be painful watching it now
Jeremy Bamber White House Farm...Innocent or Evil scumbag?
MonkeyLove
Striker
Massacred his family. I'd say that would put him in the 'issues' zone
Nukehasslefan
Winger
I'm in the process of reading the book "The murders at white house farm" by Carol Ann Lee.
I'll put my input into here after I've read it all.
It's a book that suggests people make up their own minds rather than casts any one sided story.
It goes back to adoptions to Nevill being a magistrate and in the navy, etc etc and leads up to the farm carry on.
It's pretty interesting up to now but it'll be a few more days until I read it all.
Just for the sake of it, My two penneth worth, is, I think there was more than one person involved in this.........but.....that's massive speculation from this point and I'll speculate more when I've read through it all and got a better angle.
Is Bamber guilty?.....I'm not sure. Is he innocent? I'm not sure.
I'll put my input into here after I've read it all.
It's a book that suggests people make up their own minds rather than casts any one sided story.
It goes back to adoptions to Nevill being a magistrate and in the navy, etc etc and leads up to the farm carry on.
It's pretty interesting up to now but it'll be a few more days until I read it all.
Just for the sake of it, My two penneth worth, is, I think there was more than one person involved in this.........but.....that's massive speculation from this point and I'll speculate more when I've read through it all and got a better angle.
Is Bamber guilty?.....I'm not sure. Is he innocent? I'm not sure.
Roker Skate
Central Defender
His old man was dealing with a terrifying situation in the dead of night. The farmhouse is in rural Essex. His son, who works on the farm, lives in the next village 2.6 miles away. Some people believe Nevill also tried to phone the police.
He's meant to come out of it badly. Around the time he was being replaced, another detective was tasked with reviewing all the evidence. The detective was asked to present his findings to the Chief Constable & Assistant Chief Constable of Essex Police. He told them all the evidence pointed to Bamber's sister. Legally, a police force is supposed to disclose any evidence that is potentially 'exculpatory' for the defendant. Pre-trial (1986), even the very existence of the report wasn't known to the defence. The report itself has never been released, despite a court order in the early 2000's, ordering the release of evidence.
The detective who replaced the one who's currently coming out badly in the drama, was virtually picked by one of the main prosecution witnesses (the uncle who's blood group was found in the silencer, i.e. Bamber's uncle and Bamber's sister shared the same blood group - and this is what was actually found in the silencer, pre-trial 1986). In the 90's, the uncle employed the same detective (now retired - police pension etc) at a security advisor.
People brought up on farms are often brought up around guns. What is available to me?
You reek of being full of yourself.
She is subtle in the way she does cast a one-sided story. She does this by virtually excluding or downplaying police corruption. It's worth reading some of the * and ** reviews on Amazon.
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Nukehasslefan
Winger
Aye I'm actually going through all kinds of snippets on various takes by various people. It's becoming interesting.
In a week or so I'll give my own thoughts on it but whatever is given will only be speculation in any way shape or form because the onley person/people who know the truth, are the perpetrators themselves.
Locke's SAFC
Striker
Given the evidence, as opposed to hearsay and observations, that has been seen and considered, there is no other option than to conclude Bamber is guilty.
Bamber and his team are making claims about recently unearthed documents, forensic analysis that disputes the court's findings, and so on; but as it stands these are mere claims that have not been subject to scrutiny in a court of law. It follows none of these claims amount to evidence.
When you say more than one person involved, what do you mean? That could only mean Bamber had an accomplice, but I doubt that. What I wouldn't rule out is that Bamber paid someone to do it, although it seems unlikely as there is no evidence to support this. I see him as a snidey character who avoided responsibilities, such as having no consideration for Sheila when she needed help and instead he washed his hands of it when the vast majority of people would help a stranger in that situation never mind an adopted sister. I see him as a character who wouldn't have wanted to get his hands dirty in the event he could avoid it because he seems the type to me who wouldn't have had the bollock to look his family in the eye while murdering them.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
The evidence is that the lamp shade on the ceiling fitting above the table was broken in the ferocious struggle between Neville and the killer.
The evidence is that Sheila was barefoot and wearing only her nightie with no underwear.
The evidence states 25 shots were fired. Jeremy states he initially loaded the magazine from a box containing 50 bullets. There were 30 unspent bullets found in the vicinity of the box but Jeremy cannot account from where the other 5 used bullets came from.
The weapon usually hold 8 rounds. It is considered difficult to load a ninth. Therefore to fire 25 Sheila would needed to have reloaded at least twice but more likely three times.
The pathology report mentions streaks of blood on her forearm but not scratches. There are no scratches, bruises or injuries anywhere on her body except for the two gunshot wounds.
There is no evidence she was involved in a violent struggle in the kitchen or anywhere else.
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Roker Skate
Central Defender
Double edged sword this. Some of the stuff being advanced by the defence is arguably not strong enough to withstand scrutiny, i.e. there are other interpretations available. Other stuff which is arguably stronger evidence, probably wont get to see the light of day in a court of appeal.
Sometimes there is no scrutiny going on anyway - for example, agencies such as CPS / CCRC are able to dismiss expert testimony without even bothering to get other experts to challenge / counter it. The appeals system is not set up to scrutinise and correct wrongs. It's set up to try and uphold the original conviction wherever possible, even by use of a technicality.
Nukehasslefan
Winger
The thing is I've seen many tales and sides written, talked about and they all don't show Bamber in the nasty light. It seems to be a case of those who know him/knew him from early times to sentencing have massively varying stories to tell.
Bamber the cruel. Bamber the caring. Bamber the intelligent. Bamber the thief. Bamber the farmer. Bamber the cannabis lover. Bamaber the dodgy jet setter and a whole host of other mixed results on him.
That is a major issue in itself before we even look at the entire evidence of the farm and murders, from start to finish.
However, the reason I say more than one person is the apparent ease in which it looks to have been carried out and the lack of reactionary marks on the two major suspects, one of which was laid dead and the other who is Bamber.
To take out 5 people with 28 shots requiring magazine change and without a silencer, by one person who, at best shot rabbits, seems massively far fetched in my opinion..........................BUT.
Obviously I'd need to go into much more detail but I'll try and refrain from doing so until I've done a lot more reading into it and then I'll give my views which will only ever be speculation....wild or otherwise.
From the outsider looking in scenario, like we've all been sort of media privy to over the 30 odd years since it happened.... and the way things were portrayed at that time, it seemed a closed case and a guilty as sin verdict for Bamber was correct.
The issue is, we, as a population were and still are reliant on media hype and speculation as well as wild speculation by basically all and sundry...including the law, which have been guilty of many many miscarriages of justice with all kinds of errors.
But, if a story's told and sold, people simply buy it...and in this case with Bamber we bought into it that, Bamber is this cool calm and sophisticated psychopathic killer of his entire family, who can pass a lie detector test and seemingly dedicate his time to gathering thousands and thousands of papers in order to prove his own innocence.
He may well be this mastermind and super ice cold killer who never flinches.....but.....it begs a lot of questions and all we can do is look deeper into it and give out opinions.
Most will likely have him done and dusted as the killer. And fair enough....but there'll be a lot out there...including on here.... I'd guess.... that may think differently or at least think it deserves to be looked at, even if nothing ever does change in Bambers case, which it's likely not going to, In my opinion.
It would be a bloody nose again for the justice system, which is iffy at the best of times, it seems.
.
Bear
Striker
So hes phoned his son to potentially put him in danger too ?
He tried to phone the police but somehow failed yet his son managed to get through to them no problem ?
Lol possibly the stupidest thing I've read the free Jeremy Bamber fan club are probably flat earthers too
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
It is also one of the most stupid things Jeremy could have said because if he is telling the truth then Sheila was the killer but if Sheila did not do the murders then Jeremy did and must be lying. It's one or the other. Bamber himself has ruled out any third party. When he was told during interview that Sheila was murdered and could not been the killer he tries to make out that perhaps he has mistaken in what his father said and instead of "Sheila's got the gun" (which he repeated several times from the beginning) his father may have said "She's got the gun". Also when told Sheila had been shot twice which was unlikely in a suicide, he claims the dog may have triggered the second shot.
Roker Skate
Central Defender
It's possible that it was hit by the rifle being waved or in a struggle. There were no other signs of a struggle. The TFG knocked over a table and chairs and a bowl of sugar when they stormed the farmhouse.
Police removed some black plimsoles or similar from the scene and advised a prosecution witness not to say anything. She recounted this somewhere, possibly in her notes.
The ballistics expert for the police conceded at trial that one of his female colleagues, a biologist, managed to load 9 rounds without difficulty.
Yes it doesn't mention wounds.
There is physical evidence on her body/person that she was in a violent struggle with somebody - but not necessarily one that took place in the kitchen. However, that is where Nevill's body was found, so if she was the killer, then it follows she was engaged in a violent struggle there - but probably with a wounded man.
Three adult victims have fight wounds. Bamber had no wounds. In an attempt to explain this, the uncle (who I have already referred to today) came up with a theory that he wore a wetsuit.
Well if Bamber's telling the truth, he was pre-warned by his dad, regarding the situation. He would also have been woken-up some time after 3am, to receive this information, which was literally given in one sentence. The original detective in charge had a theory that the sister may have made Nevill make the call, to lure Bamber to the farmhouse. Some people think the call logs show two separate calls to police one from Bamber Jr and one from Bamber Sr. A 999 would probably have got through to Chelmsford and Nevill would then have had to explain to an operative not familiar with the area, where he was located. But if the sister was going berserk in the farmhouse...
Sarcasm while undergoing repeated questioning. The weapon was reputed to have a hair trigger and the dog was known to be in the farmhouse during these events.
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Mercia Blackcat
Striker
1) Even if it held nine bullets it would need reloading twice to fire 25 rounds. Bamber said he took the rifle earlier and loaded the magazine with bullets from a box containing 50. After the killings 30 unused bullets were found in the box or nearby instead of 25, as 25 had been fired. Bamber could not account for this discrepancy so where could Sheila have obtained the extra 5 bullets and why should she have even looked for other bullets if it was a case of opportunity.
2) I've re-read the report by Dr Peter Vanezis dated 30 September 1985 and the only reference I can find to any grazing is:
Abdomen
There were stretch marks present and a small graze in the left lumbar region which was covered by a dressing.
3) He wasn't told until during the interview that his sister had been murdered rather than committing suicide. No great shock or outrage in his response but a bit of sarcasm? Then of course it wouldn't come as shock because he knew she had been murdered. Claims he loved her but soon after tries to sell porno pictures of her to a national newspaper.
Jeremy Bamber is a pathological liar.
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Mercia Blackcat
Striker
Well, Neville had severe bruising on his face and other areas of his body. He had been hit so hard that part of the rifle butt broke away.
I can't believe Sheila while experiencing a psychotic episode had the foresight to put on a pair of plimsoles in case a glass light shade was broken in a struggle. Then took them off again to commit suicide. Neither her feet or slippers had any shards or debris on them.
The pathologist considered that four bullet shots to his head were after he had been decapitated. Prior to that 21 shots were fired upstairs where 21 bullet cases were found. After counting up the shots to the rest of the family this meant Neville had been shot four times although one was only a grazing shot. The other three were two into the lower jaw and one into a shoulder. Clearly he made it to the kitchen where a violent struggle took place before he was subdued and then shot four times in the side of the head. I cannot accept that Sheila was physically capable of this against a strong 6 ft 4 inches man.
How could Sheila have carried this amount of ammunition around the house wearing only her nightdress?
PS
Should be decapacitated rather than decapitated
Not sure really but the farm estate was rented from the Church but valued at just under half a million. There was also a caravan park that was probably half his and the same with his grandmother's house. Don't know how much cash he could access but he had Southerby's come to the Farm to value the possesions. The day after the murders he visited his solicitors and as June and Neville had separate wills the order in which they were killed could have been significant. He even asked the police if they could determine the sequence of deaths. No one priority the day after your entire family have been brutally murdered.
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Winters
Winger
Bambers cousin Ann Eaton lives at the farm but the actual house is now used by a classic car company
Locke's SAFC
Striker
Surely the police are trained to treat every death as suspicious until ascertained otherwise.
I was watching that Barrymore programme last night and the police did exactly the same thing: they didn't seal the crime scene and as a result vital bits of evidence went missing. The people there told them it was a drowning and the police took that at face value.
How on earth the police entered a home, found five dead bodies and jumped to the conclusion that it was murder/suicide, case closed, is beyond me.
He didn't just come out of it badly: the police were highly incompetent in both the Bamber and Barrymore cases. If the police aren't trained to keep an open mind and follow the same practice of protecting a site where someone has died, then the whole institution is flawed.
Roker Skate
Central Defender
It held 10 I think. But there is no guarantee she took the option of loading the tenth. I would have to check , as I'm not that clued up regarding bullets and casings. I know there was some amunition on kitchen bench.
This is correct, regarding content of report.
During the course of his police interviewing, he was subjected to rounds of questioning, goading, abuse etc. as you would expect during police interviewing of that era. He never believed she was murdered because he had been outside with police for 3.5 hours while they tried to communicate with whoever was in the farmhouse (the alternative to this scenario, is that for 3.5 hours, everyone just waited outside a totally silent farmhouse). When he was told everyone was dead, his reaction was the blame the TFG for shooting his family. Why didn't he blame his sister? He's supposed to have set her up. This suggests that the police considered there to be signs of life in the farmhouse during those 3.5 hours. In about 2004, two Italian professors submitted reports to the effect that from crime scene photos, and from details in police witness statements, her time of death was in the vicinity of the time the TFG operation on the farmhouse took place. The CCRC rejected their reports, on the grounds that they had studied photographs rather than her actual corpse. If he was sarcastic at any point during questioning, it may have been because he knew it was bullshit or because he was reacting to snide questioning. You or me might do the same in such circs.
The police have never released photos of what was at the window (either a rifle or something that appeared to be a rifle) that was sighted by two separate police officers on spotting duty outside, prior to the raid. The only rifle found upstairs was on top of her. The spotters' statements were never disclosed to the defence (so the defence never had an opportunity to question any of this in court or at subsequent appeals). One of the raid team members who were the first on the scene, expressed he had no recollection of seeing a rifle being on top of her - and again, none of this was disclosed to the defence. In fact the TFG officers "as a team" expressed their concerns several times regarding the crime scene having been altered after they left it.
The police are pathological liars when it comes to this case. And if they weren't, why has Roy Tyzak spoken up? That takes a lot of courage - because police normally close ranks. He's not the only former EP officer who has turned against their former employer on this case.
As for the nude photos, I am undecided. He could have done it tbh. I have heard there were three sets of images (some slides, and some separate photos). One thing that should be considered is the The Sun journalist Fielder does not have a good rep himself. Below is a different version of what took place:
It has often been written that on Monday 16th September 1985 Jeremy and Brett met Mr Michael Fielder, a journalist from The Sun newspaper, in the Nags Head Public House in Chelmsford where it has been alleged Jeremy offered to sell topless images of Sheila to the newspaper. Brett had convinced Jeremy that he should meet with Fielder so he could give him his version of events and perhaps be paid for his story regarding the tragedies. Fielder however was not interested in listening to Jeremy, and instead raised the issue of Jeremy having nude photographs of Sheila, hoping that Jeremy would sell them to him to publish. Nude photos did exist, as Colin Caffell admitted in a statement dated 24 September 1985, that he took photographs of Sheila whilst she was sunbathing in the nude at White House Farm, he explained: “These were of Sheila sunbathing in a field and at the time she had no clothes on at all. These photographs were processed onto slides”. Caffell went on to say that upon their break up Sheila had kept the slides.
On 7th September 1985, during a visit to ‘Moreshead Mansions’ to collect property which had belonged to the children and albums of photographs, including Sheila’s portfolio, Jeremy pointed out to Colin that there were a number of professionally taken shots of Sheila which he may not be aware of and showed them to Caffell. Colin described these to Essex Police saying: “The slides had been professionally taken and were of Sheila in various states of undress in a paddling pool. I think I would describe these slides as 'soft pornography' as they were quite explicit in detail. I asked Jeremy if I could take these slides so that I could destroy them. He agreed that I could take them, which I did.”
From there, Caffell admits he did not actually destroy the images, but instead: “I disposed of them by putting them in the dustbin. I did, in fact, place the slides into a dustbin liner and handed them to a refuse collector to ensure they went into the dustcart.” It is therefore clear that some nine days prior to Jeremy allegedly wishing to sell these photographs to Mr Fielder, they were already in the possession of Colin Caffell, and the story about Jeremy trying to sell the pictures is wholly untrue.
Effectively the prosecution witnesses, including those who found the silencer exhibit (after Bamber had given them the keys to the farmhouse, directly after the tragedy) were the beneficiaries. Robert Boutflour, Bamber's uncle gave evidence in court to the effect that Bamber had previously said to him "uncle Bobby.. I could easily shoot my parents". The jury were suspicious of Robert Boutflour's claims and so they submitted a question to the court as to whether he (RB) would benefit in any way from Bamber's conviction. Boutflour replied that he would not. Upon Bamber's conviction, the deceased Bambers' estate went to Robert Boutflour's wife. The same prosecution witness is mentioned further up on this thread re other circs relating to this case.
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Mercia Blackcat
Striker
Irrelevant as she would have still needed to have carried enough bullets to reload twice while wearing only a nightie. There were a total of 30 unused bullets in the kitchen from a box of 50, yet by the end 25 shots had been fired. Where could she have got the extra 5 bullets from if Jeremy was telling the truth and he freshly loaded the magazine earlier from a box of 50? 21 Shots were fired upstairs and 21 cases were found. The other 4 victims were shot a total of 17 times so irrespective of the order and timing of those shootings, Neville must have been shot 4 times while upstairs.
The postmortem reveals Neville had sustained a grazing shot but three shots had entry points. One shot his lower lip off and the other was to the lower jaw that damaged his voice box. The third was to his left shoulder. He did make it downstairs to the kitchen were a fierce struggle ensued in which he was hit with such force that the butt of the rifle was broken. Four fatal shots were then made to the right hand side of his head.
Yet, he is supposed to have rang Jeremy and spoken clearly despite the blood pouring from his mouth without leaving blood on the phone. There were three phones found in the kitchen. One was broken, one was hidden under newspapers and the one that could have been used was carried down from the main bedroom.
If Jeremy is lying about Sheila being mentioned by Neville, then Jeremy is guilty.
In the police interview transcript he is evasive. For someone recollecting the truth many of his replies consist of "that depends what I said previously". He sounds more like someone who can't remember his previous lies rather than someone recollecting the truth. Despite on numerous occasions from the beginning he claimed Neville had told his on the phone that "Sheila" has got the gun, he changes his mind to claiming Neville may have said "She's" got the gun once he has been told she was murdered. They even ask him if he means another woman conducted the murders.
It was impossible for Neville to have called him on the phone and even spoken to him considering the injuries Neville had sustained upstairs.
If Jeremy is lying about this call or its content then he is guilty.
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