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4th Ashes Test - Old Trafford

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rentaghost said:
Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with selecting players who have done well in red ball cricket. The likes of Stoneman and Burns had aweight of runs over a 5 year period that was making them hard to ignore. Its clearly a strong indicator but there are even more important considerations. How strong is their backfoot game? Do they play the ball late to good effect? What are their performances like against the high quality bowlers? Even if they tick all of the boxes there no guarantee that they will make the step up. Its just the breed of fan who looks at county batting averages and assumes the person with the highest must be the best and must be the next in line. Sibley for example may tick all of these boxes, but posters on here don't know. There may be players with more moderate averages that just have the game and temperament that would transfer itself to test cricket better as it did with the likes of Stewart, Vaughan and Trescothick who were selected at times when there were players with much better first class records.


Fair enough squire - Whatever Duke balls were being used there was certainly swing in perfect conditions at Headingly and if the pitch and overhead conditions are the same at OT then Curran is certainly skilful enough to bowl well in a horses for courses selection. With back to back Test matches, doubts over Woakes fitness and the fact that the Oval is as flat as a witches tit where i think Curran would be cannon fodder, perhaps a change will be made. Whether its Curran or Overton will depend on whether the surface is hard and true, as if often is at OT, or whether there is a bit of moisture supporting the cause of a pitch it up left armer.
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All of what your saying I honestly don't think has crossed our selectors minds though. I completely agree with you and I've fallen into the trap of just looking at averages.

We've selected via runs scored in red ball cricket which can't be ignored in Jennings Burns Lyth and then selected the rest based on white ball involvement.

With the latest side being very white ball orientated. If what we have following up isn't good enough then heaven f***ing help us.
 

mackembhoy said:
All of what your saying I honestly don't think has crossed our selectors minds though. I completely agree with you and I've fallen into the trap of just looking at averages.

We've selected via runs scored in red ball cricket which can't be ignored in Jennings Burns Lyth and then selected the rest based on white ball involvement.

With the latest side being very white ball orientated. If what we have following up isn't good enough then heaven f***ing help us.
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I think Ollie Pope looks f***ing excellent mind. Reminds me of a young Ian Bell. I'm sure once this series is over win, lose or draw he will be in the team. He does have an excellent first class average but more to the point he just has so much time and makes it look so easy. I havent seen enough of the likes of Sibley, Crawley etc to have a view tbh but hopefully at least one of those two will be good enough to make the step up.
 
rentaghost said:
I think Ollie Pope looks f***ing excellent mind. Reminds me of a young Ian Bell. I'm sure once this series is over win, lose or draw he will be in the team. He does have an excellent first class average but more to the point he just has so much time and makes it look so easy. I havent seen enough of the likes of Sibley, Crawley etc to have a view tbh but hopefully at least one of those two will be good enough to make the step up.
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I thought it was odd we took him out so quickly when we've given most 5 or 6 tests before pulling the plug. Age can't be a factor when they'd have stuck with hameed had he not got injured how different the situation might be had he not got injured mind.

I've only Sibley and Hain for example in white ball which tells us nowt about them of how they would fair in an ashes series just dropped in.

For the selectors sake I hope theyve made the right call. Changing none of the personnel
 
mackembhoy said:
I thought it was odd we took him out so quickly when we've given most 5 or 6 tests before pulling the plug. Age can't be a factor when they'd have stuck with hameed had he not got injured how different the situation might be had he not got injured mind.

I've only Sibley and Hain for example in white ball which tells us nowt about them of how they would fair in an ashes series just dropped in.

For the selectors sake I hope theyve made the right call. Changing none of the personnel
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Pope was selected after only 8 first class games and last summer was really difficult for batting with Bumrah, Shami etc swinging it loads. Pope got injured early this season and has only just regained fitness and scored a double hundred in his come back game. I think he probably would have featured this summer if he had been fit and started the season well. Hes the only one I would have considered bringing in for Roy but can understand why they didn't. If we lose this test and therefore the Ashes those decisions will be criticised and there will be wholesale changes.
 
Steak Pie said:
Curran's long term future in the team is as the new Paul Collingwood, not the new Stuart Broad.
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If hes going to play for England I completely agree. He has to develop his batting to become a top 6 player rather than just a talented stroke player and needs to get the chance at Surrey or even winter cricket in SA or Aus to let this happen. Lets face it hes tiny, hes never going to bowl much quicker and will never get picked regularly for his bowling alone. Surrey recently played him at 3 in a championship game but i found out later it was just so he could get his knock in before returning to England duty at the end of play that day. I hope he gets the chance.
 
rentaghost said:
If hes going to play for England I completely agree. He has to develop his batting to become a top 6 player rather than just a talented stroke player and needs to get the chance at Surrey or even winter cricket in SA or Aus to let this happen. Lets face it hes tiny, hes never going to bowl much quicker and will never get picked regularly for his bowling alone. Surrey recently played him at 3 in a championship game but i found out later it was just so he could get his knock in before returning to England duty at the end of play that day. I hope he gets the chance.
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He's definitely got 'it' though, proper little scrapper. Sort of fella who won't let an ounce of talent go to waste, if anyone can nail the Colly role at no.6 with occasional dibblys, it's him.
 
Steak Pie said:
He's definitely got 'it' though, proper little scrapper. Sort of fella who won't let an ounce of talent go to waste, if anyone can nail the Colly role at no.6 with occasional dibblys, it's him.
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i think thats why so many people want to see him in. Hes got the mental strength and is a really good cricketer but as things are hes not good enough to select as a batsman or a bowler. I wouldn't bet against him doing exactly what you say though.
 
rentaghost said:
i think thats why so many people want to see him in. Hes got the mental strength and is a really good cricketer but as things are hes not good enough to select as a batsman or a bowler. I wouldn't bet against him doing exactly what you say though.
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And I doubt he'll ever add 6-8 mph to his stock ball so will probably never make it as anything more than an occasional bowler. But he has played a couple of different types of innings already for England, I wouldn't have minded if they put him in on Wednesday.
 
chunkylover53 said:
I’ll point out again that Buttler has 1 ton in 33 tests and 5 career tons in nearly 100 games

If he was a keeper at 7 I’d let him off. But he’s a specialist bat and that’s not good enough

He’s an incredible white ball player and I hope he comes good. I fear he won’t
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You have made the argument many times. It’s a strong one. He will play as long as the Ashes are still alive and at the end of the series the question will answer itself. He will have continued his current form and his place will become untenable or come up with a tremendous knock which you could then put alongside his excellent summer last year. It’s not just him though all of the batsmen bar Root and Stokes that have their careers to fight for.
 
Roy hasnt deserved a place at all. The experiment as an opener failed so should have been replaced by an opener. Denly was barely adequate batting 4 and now opening. Roy should be going back to first class cricket to get practice in
 
Mainze said:
Was always going to happen tbh. Blooding a player now wouldn’t happen so deep in the series unless they were a potential superstar.
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They don't even need to blood a player to do the right thing and fuck Roy off though.

I understand your point though, would be difficult for say, Sibley to come in and open, but I'd drop Roy totally and replace him with Pope (coming in at 6). Whilst I'm not keen on Denly opening, he should atleast be a safer bet than Roy. He may scratch his way around for 15 overs for 10, but it would get us through the first hour and atleast Root would be coming in against the change bowlers.
 
brandon said:
They don't even need to blood a player to do the right thing and fuck Roy off though.

I understand your point though, would be difficult for say, Sibley to come in and open, but I'd drop Roy totally and replace him with Pope (coming in at 6). Whilst I'm not keen on Denly opening, he should atleast be a safer bet than Roy. He may scratch his way around for 15 overs for 10, but it would get us through the first hour and atleast Root would be coming in against the change bowlers.
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I think there is still a belief that Roy will fire in Test Cricket clearly from the management. I don’t necessarily agree, pretty certain he would have been dropped if Stokes hadn’t pulled off that miracle.

I was impressed with Denly at Headingly when I was there on the Saturday. The ball was doing a lot and he dug in and fought hard for his wicket. I don’t think he’s a dead loss just yet.....
 
Think Roy in particular but then also Denly, Bairstow and Buttler are fortunate to still be selected. Thanks to the FTECB match schedule though, there has been only one round of CC cricket since the 13th of July (18 days before the 1st Test). Not much chance therefore to assess anyone's form etc. Typically, in his one available match in this period Sibly scored nine and a duck.
 
They have realised they massive mistake in opening with Roy, and have now moved him down the order.

They damned if they do, damned if they don’t on here, if Roy was left opening they would have been criticised.

What they trying to do is get a top 6 or 7 out of very limited and capable personal, pretty much what every country worldwide in test cricket is doing at the moment, all teams bar none are struggling with their top order in test cricket at the moment.

The negativity on here is just constant and no balance, we have just won the World Cup, would be 2 1 up in the Ashes if not for rain in the second test, but the negativity and crictism continues despite our cupboard been relatively bare with quality replacements, and that coupled with ,do we really want to give possible debuts to people on such a massive and pressurised situation.

I for one am pleased they have realised the mistake of Roy opening and while of course Denly is maybe not the ideal option, they haven’t got viable options available imo.
Rufus T Firefly said:
Think Roy in particular but then also Denly, Bairstow and Buttler are fortunate to still be selected. Thanks to the FTECB match schedule though, there has been only one round of CC cricket since the 13th of July (18 days before the 1st Test). Not much chance therefore to assess anyone's form etc. Typically, in his one available match in this period Sibly scored nine and a duck.
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That four players you mentioned, you can’t seriously be suggesting we drop four batsman and players in such a crucial game, and if so who for?

The replacements are simply not there or up to scratch imo.
 
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