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Roker Rapport Podcast: With Stewart Donald (Tues 28th May)

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Does anybody else think the testimonial for Catts is to get him to leave this summer? (They mentioned a game in June or July)
 
Invictus said:
I think it’s probably a combination of both. Coton will have contacts who will point him towards certain players, then they will look at the stats for them and vice versa, where the stats will point towards certain players and Coton will do a bit of networking to find out what the individual is like from his contacts.
Data doesn’t tell you everything about players such as their attitude etc, which we have found out to our cost in the past!
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Seems pretty old school compared to what is available but the signings agree with your suggestion that contacts are primarily used to signify targets with the majority having Wigan links.

And what makes TC the right person to be doing it? Not saying he isn't, id just like to know what makes him the outstanding candidate for such an important decisionmaker.

Who are the scouts he has employed, how were they vetted?

Are we aware of how clubs use analysis to improve their scouting system? Is our setup better or does it place importance on it?

Are the targets identified under any philosophy such as importance on their value increasing or just what we need at the time?

All in all, how exactly is our setup better than everyone else in the division?
 
Splurty said:
Half the issue though. If you ask the majority of Sunderland fan base what the team is lacking, i’d suggest over 75% would say pace, physicality and some athleticism. Hell, if you could go back in time and ask them this, this time last year, they’d say the same thing. Stewart Donald even said it was obvious the team lacked physicality In the summer and “we’ll get it” in one of the first podcasts. Two transfer windows later, we haven’t signed one midfielder over 6ft - is Aiden McGeady our tallest midfielder? Nor have we signed one midfielder with any real mobility. We have literally no one with any pace, bar an injured Watmore and teenager who can’t control a football - Kimpioka. It’s basic requirements of modern day football - yet the recruitment team and Jack seemingly can’t see the glaringly obvious?
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Goes back a lot further than that - quote from Advocaat;

DICK ADVOCAAT admits the Sunderland squad he has inherited lacks sufficient muscle, particularly with a trip to Stoke City on the horizon.
It is four weeks since Advocaat took charge at Sunderland, with the Black Cats managing to extend the gap with the drop zone to three points during that time, despite Saturday’s shambolic collapse to Crystal Palace.

But like predecessors Paolo Di Canio and Gus Poyet, Advocaat has begun to hint at a lack of quality in Sunderland’s ranks.

Advocaat believes one of Sunderland’s shortcomings is insufficient physical presence after Poyet assembled a side designed to play a possession-based, Continental style.

There are not any obvious solutions waiting in the wings to address that problem, but it is weighing heavily on Advocaat’s mind ahead of the tussle at Stoke on Saturday-week.

Advocaat said: “We are not a real physical team. If you compare us with the other teams, that’s a big difference.

“In the Premier League, you need physical players as well.

“We have to think about that for the game with Stoke City.

“We have different type of players, who are more combination players, than with more pace.

“We have to find a combination to create chances and win games.

“We cannot complain to each other. You win games together, you lose games together.

“They also know they played badly in the second half against Crystal Palace. The way we gave the goals away was very poor.

“But we have to do it with this squad, and we will do it with this squad.”

Advocaat has plenty of chance to find a solution before the trip to the Britannia Stadium, with Sunderland not in action this weekend due to the FA Cup.

However, the former Holland manager admits that a break is the last thing he wants, as Sunderland are forced to stew on their Palace collapse, rather than facing a chance to make amends.

And with fellow strugglers Burnley and Leicester both in action this Saturday, Sunderland’s buffer with the drop zone could be eroded without them even playing.

“No, it doesn’t help not having a game this weekend,” admitted Advocaat.

“Now we have to wait 14 days and the other teams are playing next weekend.

“You don’t know what is going to happen before then.”

Invictus said:
Realistically I think we just got bodies through the door in the summer. I think it was telling that Donald said we got players in who had been in promotion teams but it didn’t quite work out for us.
Again in January I think Maja leaving, and all those goals going with him, created a bit of panic which led to Grigg.
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Advocaat has favoured the 4-3-3 in his recent managerial career and was always planning to deploy Sunderland in that set-up during his first season in charge.

But he denied that Sunderland’s summer signings were made to purely fit into that system. “No, we just signed players who were available,” he said.

Sunderland Echo Sept 2015.
 
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Donald likeable and probably got integrity.

Methven will say anything to make himself look good
 
Coeus said:
Seems pretty old school compared to what is available but the signings agree with your suggestion that contacts are primarily used to signify targets with the majority having Wigan links.

And what makes TC the right person to be doing it? Not saying he isn't, id just like to know what makes him the outstanding candidate for such an important decisionmaker.

Who are the scouts he has employed, how were they vetted?

Are we aware of how clubs use analysis to improve their scouting system? Is our setup better or does it place importance on it?

Are the targets identified under any philosophy such as importance on their value increasing or just what we need at the time?

All in all, how exactly is our setup better than everyone else in the division?
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I think you are probably right, but I think if you are building a club from the bottom up, which it looks like we are having to do, then I suppose you start with the basics and work from there.
 
Splurty said:
The question about Grigg seemed more of a dig at the recruitment policy. Why sign a player that doesn't fit into the squad at all - a constant failure so far from Ross, Hill, Coton etc.

Why sign three centre backs of similar qualities? Flanagan, Dunne, Baldwin (lightweight, gangly etc). Why sign McGeouch, Leadbitter and Power? Add some variation to the signings to create a cohesive midfield, not a carbon-copy midfield. The recruitment just comes across as a scatter-gun approach, without any real comprehension of a master plan, or how each player will compliment another. Which stems back to the Grigg deal - have they really thought about how he'll work with the team? Or have they just been short-sighted and saw goals on his CV and think that'll plug a gap?
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Been saying for ages, the state we were in last summer, the recruitment was scattergun as you say. It was more about quantity than quality. This summer it has to be about the latter, the recruitment has to be spot on. As Charlie said, no excuses.
 
Donald comes across well as usual, seems the things I got at the other day about integrity and people calling him a liar was right. He knows he talks to much but I feel he's an honest bloke, Charlie on the other hand I wouldn't believe out he says purely on the basis he's a true PR man, nowt against him personally.
 
Invictus said:
I think you are probably right, but I think if you are building a club from the bottom up, which it looks like we are having to do, then I suppose you start with the basics and work from there.
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Completely agree, I just don't have any inkling that they are building up from basic and would have liked the podcast to probe this. Everything that has been said indicates to me that the basics being ok is what we are trying to achieve rather than a base to improve.

Thinking about it, it seems interesting that Methven spoke at length about analytics in marketing, it is absolutely standard to use data in that field to predict such complexities of customer behaviour and the like and a huge array of AI orientated software to assist. It isn't quite standard in football yet and that could be the reason for owners not going out of their way to implement such methods because there is no easy plug and play solution, it requires a lot of thought and specialised people to strategise succesfully.
 
Medulla said:
Some interesting points. I thought he rather missed the point on the Lyle Taylor issue TBH, he responded as if it was about the money and I don't think that was really it. Galling perhaps but like you say sometimes you need to massage the egos of the better players.
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Players love to have their ego rubbed. Everyone wants to feel wanted. If we really want Taylor we should made him feel like Messi!
 
Coeus said:
Completely agree, I just don't have any inkling that they are building up from basic and would have liked the podcast to probe this. Everything that has been said indicates to me that the basics being ok is what we are trying to achieve rather than a base to improve.

Thinking about it, it seems interesting that Methven spoke at length about analytics in marketing, it is absolutely standard to use data in that field to predict such complexities of customer behaviour and the like and a huge array of AI orientated software to assist. It isn't quite standard in football yet and that could be the reason for owners not going out of their way to implement such methods because there is no easy plug and play solution, it requires a lot of thought and specialised people to strategise succesfully.
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We're still taking baby steps. You're talking about advanced statisistical methods, and we're only 12 months on from "scouts" recommending Ibrahimovic.
 
Coeus said:
That's fine, all about opinions. It's just when you say things like "100 point season" & "Man City don't have to spend twice what Liverpool do" the obvious line of questioning to me is how are we going to do that? As it stands, it's just saying our intentions are to be mint and we won't make excuses if we're not.

I'd far rather hear how they are going to excel in areas they are responsible for like remits, philosophy, infrastructure and so on than labouring the point about Grigg not fitting into the system.
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I enjoyed the podcast but was disappointed that they talked more about finances that football. I would have liked to hear what his ethos and philosophy is towards running the football side of things. Does he want to go down the Ajax route of buying young players with sell on value? Does he feel that we should develop young players and scout all over Europe. At the minute it seems a bit old school and out dated.

I looked at his time at Eastleigh. He did wonders off the field but on it they fell short. It seemed like he was of the old school of buying players who are good enough and thinking you make a team out of them. That doesn't work. He brought Richard Hill and Paul Reid with him. Both men failed at their jobs at Eastleigh and Coton was a flop at Villa. We need the right people in those position.
 
Grumpy Old Man said:
We're still taking baby steps. You're talking about advanced statisistical methods, and we're only 12 months on from "scouts" recommending Ibrahimovic.
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But I have no inkling what we are taking baby steps towards other than getting the basics right. That's what I would like to know? Not demanding anything or throwing my dummy out but things like the "Dortmund Model" are disconcerting when it is revealed we don't plan on implementing anything that actually made them successful, just that we want success.

That Ibrahimovic thing should be a warning to all that people employed by the club are fully capable of absolute piss-taking, no one in their right mind would have believed that had it been said on here. Just like Donald said previously, everyone needs to be held accountable.

Black Cat Gypsy said:
I enjoyed the podcast but was disappointed that they talked more about finances that football. I would have liked to hear what his ethos and philosophy is towards running the football side of things. Does he want to go down the Ajax route of buying young players with sell on value? Does he feel that we should develop young players and scout all over Europe. At the minute it seems a bit old school and out dated.

I looked at his time at Eastleigh. He did wonders off the field but on it they fell short. It seemed like he was of the old school of buying players who are good enough and thinking you make a team out of them. That doesn't work. He brought Richard Hill and Paul Reid with him. Both men failed at their jobs at Eastleigh and Coton was a flop at Villa. We need the right people in those position.
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I completely agree but the remits these people are given is his responsibility. Had he said to Paul Reid, I want you to set up an Ajax-like academy where analytics, scouting and schooling will be state of the art and Reid said that in the first 4 months he had moved some office blue screens about, I imagine he would be out. As it is, he isn't, results have been terrible, players are leaving on bad terms with different accounts on reasoning and the youths are being referred to as "little Jonny".
 
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Coeus said:
But I have no inkling what we are taking baby steps towards other than getting the basics right. That's what I would like to know? Not demanding anything or throwing my dummy out but things like the "Dortmund Model" are disconcerting when it is revealed we don't plan on implementing anything that actually made them successful, just that we want success.

That Ibrahimovic thing should be a warning to all that people employed by the club are fully capable of absolute piss-taking, no one in their right mind would have believed that had it been said on here. Just like Donald said previously, everyone needs to be held accountable.
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That could, and probably would have been gone into, in more detail if we'd won on Sunday. An awful lot of time was used in a post-mortem that wouldn't have been needed, and that time used for something different. The financial side absolutely had to be tidied up. That was promoting so much misinformation and potentially libellous comments that there was no other option. There's clearly more analysis work being done than before; Donald referred to Jack asking for, and getting, more analysts. You clearly have an interest in the detail that is, perhaps, not common among the support base. 2 hours is probably too long for a podcast to begin with; it's not really the place for digging deep into detail. That's more of a job for RAWA.
 
Grumpy Old Man said:
That could, and probably would have been gone into, in more detail if we'd won on Sunday. An awful lot of time was used in a post-mortem that wouldn't have been needed, and that time used for something different. The financial side absolutely had to be tidied up. That was promoting so much misinformation and potentially libellous comments that there was no other option. There's clearly more analysis work being done than before; Donald referred to Jack asking for, and getting, more analysts. You clearly have an interest in the detail that is, perhaps, not common among the support base. 2 hours is probably too long for a podcast to begin with; it's not really the place for digging deep into detail. That's more of a job for RAWA.
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I understand why the questions that were asked, I understand the time taken on the finance and that my interest is in the minority.

I can only say why I didn't enjoy it and why I find surface answers such as "expect 100 points" meaningless without details as to how.

I don't know a great deal about RAWA, I assumed they were more to do with Methven and the match day experience. This wasn't the first time the questions have been posed but not asked, it may be because the chaps interviewing are not of the same opinion or require the same detail and wish it to remain more standard chat.
 
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